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CptCurlAdministrator
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Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle
      #53491 - 28/03/06 10:31 PM

Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle



The rifle is a best quality SxS by Thomas Horsley & Son of York, SN 2995





It is constructed with the Jones underlever with a dolls head rib extension. The locks are back-action non-rebounding hammer sidelocks. The rifle weighs 11 pounds precisely.











The 28” barrels appear to be fluid steel. They are Henry rifled, with attribution to Henry’s patent. The rifle dates to 1886.







Proofing is London 12 bore black powder.









This rifle is now the property of another. It is truly a time capsule back to 1886.

Fortunately it has never suffered the indignity of gunsmithing "improvements."

Curl




--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by DRarchive (03/07/08 11:19 PM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #53499 - 28/03/06 11:54 PM

Man, how many wild horses did it take to drag that gun away from you!?!

This just keeps getting better and better!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500Nitro
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #53504 - 29/03/06 01:08 AM


Curl,

Outstanding, son, outstanding !!!


500 Nitro


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #53505 - 29/03/06 01:25 AM

Interesting detail on the action flats, the conical slots between the pin and the bolt.

Anyone here ever seen that particular style of detail elsewhere?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Marrakai
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #53509 - 29/03/06 01:38 AM

Yes Tinker, my 20-bore/.577 Alex Henry has them too, just like that.
The AH is also a Jones-underlever hammer-gun, and also 'best quality' according to the maker's ledger.

Photos coming soon!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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tinker
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #53510 - 29/03/06 01:50 AM

Is there some incestuous union in the background of those two makers?
Do you have any idea as to who made the action of your 20/577?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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500Nitro
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #53516 - 29/03/06 02:38 AM


tinker

The whole English gun trade was one incestuous union in the background !!!

500 Nitro


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tinker
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #53524 - 29/03/06 03:34 AM

Excellent point-

I meant to ask if he knew of a -particular- incestuous union...

The reason I ask is that I have a very, very nicely made twenty bore SxS breech loading shotgun, what seems to be an externally capping cartridge gun (hammers over the top of the chambers) that has action cuts of the very same style. The gun I speak of is likely from the 1820's and bears no maker's name.

Perhaps I'll have to get some photos up some time soon.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #53525 - 29/03/06 03:45 AM

Curl:

Really nice. It certainly doesn't appear to have ever been buggered by a hack. The barrel finish looks original. The striking marks are still visible through the finish, so it at least hasn't been improperly polished. Did you ever shoot it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DarylS
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #53527 - 29/03/06 04:41 AM

Tinker I suggest that 20 bore must be later than 1855. In 1820, most gun makers were still making flinters. The percussion cap was only just being invented. There were a few pill locks, then tube locks about the time the copper persussion cap came about. At that time, there were no 20 bore ctg. guns that I am aware of. There were some breechloaders, though, all the way back to match-lock days actually. Most breechloaders of 1820 + used a flint or percussion ignition system along with a paper ctg. similar or identical to the government army issue.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #53536 - 29/03/06 05:53 AM

Daryl-

This is the gun I speak of.

That little square peg you see works to assist opening!
You can see the top of the conical funnel-shape cuts on the action flats, they look exactly like the style of lightening cuts on the twelve bore gun above, but are closer together as this is a very slender little shotgun.

I don't have many photos of it up and ready to post, but take a little look-see here.





I thought you'd get a bit of a rise out of that one, especially since I know you're a muzzleloading blackpowder shooting kind of guy.

The chambers have no provision for rims.
There are ferrules under those barrels, they're made of damascus like the barrels and ribs are.

The inletting is amazing, the interior of the lockwork is mirror bright.

Also, these photos don't do any kind of justice to the wood, which is absolutely goregeous.

Anyone recognise anything there?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Thomas Horsley & Son 12 Bore Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #53540 - 29/03/06 07:29 AM

Great pictures - thanks for publishing them.
: The gun appears to be a Lefaucheux- style pin-fire breechloader from the 1850 to 1870 period.
: I couldn't quite see to small pin-holes on top at the breech-ends, but they must be there. The shot (or ball) shell had a percussion cap inside against the 'bottom' of the case, totally enclosed in the black powder charge. A pin of steel ran through the rim, angling down into the centre of the percussion cap. Upon being struck with the hammer, the pin exploaded the cap, which set off the charge.
: That is a lovely gun- complete with fences to protect the shooter from flash from the holes. Upon opening up the action, the pins were used to extract the empty hulls.
: As you stated it isn't chambered for rims, this tells me it is indeed a pinfire.
: When Lt. James Forsyth wrote his charming little book "The Sporting rifle and it's Projetiles" the pin-fires had just 'come out' to India. He wrote the book in 1858, published in 1860 or 61. His notes they would make a great additional gun for the battery.
: A that time, 1850 to 1860, cap-lock double rifles were the 'norm' and the "ne-plus-ultra' of hunting rifles for Dangerous Game in India. The 14 bore double rifle was apparently the ultimate choice. There were many 12's up to 8's as well, but since a hardened 15 bore ball (14 bore rifle) would exit an Indian Elephant's head, more power was deemed to be excessive along with increased recoil form larger bores.
: Due to the pin-fire's action-type and length of shell, it didn't carry the charges that were used in the muzzleloaders, hense it lacked their ultimate power. It took the English BPE ctgs. to come even remotely close, but they still lacked the power for dangerous game in India, or Africa, compared to the lowly, antiquish round ball of adequate size.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Not so quick to call it a pinfire... [Re: DarylS]
      #53545 - 29/03/06 08:37 AM

Daryl-

This one isn't a pinfire gun.
I have pinfire guns, rifles and shotguns, some very nice ones at that including a signed, addressed 28b Lefaucheux high grade gun from the Vivian road shop.

Note that even the early patent of the pinfire cartridge called for a rim. Not as much of a rim as modern centerfire shot cartridges, but a rim anyhow.

The early Lefaucheux action type utilized only one bite, like this gun does, later guns from the late 50's and early 60's almost all had two bites like the Jones pattern.
Did you notice that the action opening lever on this gun is the trigger guard?

As far as provisions for firing pins on the tops of the barrel chamber areas, this gun doesn't have the notches seen on pinfire guns. A Lefaucheux type pinfire cartridge wouldn't be able to chamber in this gun. The flash holes for ignition are centered about 3/16" downrange from the breech faces, holes surrounded by metal - no pinfire pin would be able to slide in and back out.
Note though that there are vertical keys on the action breech faces, similar to keys seen on some muzzle loading rifles which would allow for simple removal of the breeched barrel assembly -- on this gun they're pierced and the holes through them go through the standing breech of the action. Under the wood at the head of the stock there are pins through those holes which are held on to the action with thin strips of spring steel. Almost as if they were some kind of breech blow-back pressure relief valving. I doubt that was the intent though in that the gases would escape out against the stock head and blow the gun if that were to occur -- also the pins and spring steel retainers are held captive, inletted into the stock wood.

Interesting, dontchya think?


The reason I bring this gun up in the context of Curl's 12b rifle thread is that the action lightening cuts are of similar-to-identical style and execution of the ones seen on his gun. Hearing that Marrakai has a gun with cuts that look the same, and also knowing that Marrakai has gone to great depths with other guns of his to find the discreet origins of it's precious bits, I thought I might have a chance to learn something about my slick and slender little 20b SxS here.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Not so quick to call it a pinfire... [Re: tinker]
      #53547 - 29/03/06 09:09 AM

That is indeed an interesting gun. What is the firing mechanism?
: The only pin-fire rounds I have held, had no rim at all, with a radiused edge to the brass base as well as copper cased .32 cal. handgun pinfire rounds also - no rims. The only exraction possible was by the pin. Seems to me, there was a pin-fire that was about 3/8" ahead of the ctg. base.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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That coach gun of Curl's... [Re: DarylS]
      #53551 - 29/03/06 10:15 AM

Curl (or whoever the lucky sob is who owns that nice 12b rifle up there at the top of the thread...) could use that double rifle as a coach gun to fend off this tangental hijack of the thread here...


Daryl-

If the flash holes on the barrel tops were slots and not holes, a pinfire cartridge with pins some way up the case wall would work out, not the case with this gun.
Also, the nipples (or whatever firing mechanism) are missing from the gun.
Hence some of the mystery here.

All of the pistol and small-rifle (revolving carbine... essentially pistol ammo) pinfire ammunition I've seen has been rimless. The sporting long guns I've seen and handled (quite a few, some crap and some best-grade work) both rifles and shotguns have all had some provision for rimmed ammunition. I've seen rimless shotshells, although never in the flesh and only in photos of a couple of examples (including the stuff Seyfried has published in his articles), but the rimmed versions have overwhelmingly outnumbered them in the cartridge collections I've seen.

I've come across much detailed text on the numerous metallic/paper cartridges which were fired via percussion through the thin paper case wall, and some of the side-ignition meatllic cartridges which were essentially *internal pinfire* with internal caps and strikers which fired the caps via a blow on the side of the thin metal case.
It's possible that this gun was set up for either.
Hard to tell at this point though.
I thought that if there were some action builder who's 'trade mark' was these action lightening conical funnel thingies like Curl's 12b gun has, there might be a way to look into his history of work for some more clues into what I have here.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: That coach gun of Curl's... [Re: tinker]
      #53563 - 29/03/06 02:03 PM

Eaxctly- sorry Curl.
: It is odd that the igniton system isn't obvious. There were many different variants in the build-up towards the centre-fire ctg., which came about around 1868 or abouts.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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