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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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jc5
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Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124099 - 15/01/09 04:10 AM

Jim, I sent you an email offline.

I agree that this must be a No. 2 pattern that had the charger bridge fitted, especially as the numbers all match. I would never judge a Lee Speed based on bolt, magazine, or barrel features alone (too many have had these swapped out), but taken all together and with matching numbers, it's the real deal.

The aperture sight could have been fitted at the time of purchase by the retailer.

When you post additional pics, how about one of the action from above, and one of the left side of the action? I'd also love to see some close-ups of the buttstock and the front sight.

It's pretty rare to see one that had the bridge fitted like this, rather than starting from an SMLE-type action.

...

Huvius wrote: "Generally, what is the most desireable configuration?"

These Lee Speeds have so many variations because they were done to a customer's order, not to a Government's List of Changes specification. When you factor all the options, it adds up to many variations, all of which are correct. Put yourself in the mind of an Edwardian customer, browse the BSA catalogue, and decide what is most desirable to you. That's the one to seek. I think they're all desirable and interesting, but most people seem to be most impressed by the presence of a barrel rib, like on the No.1 pattern...I don't think it's terribly functional, but it looks smart. I'd rather find a No.4b in good condition than a ribbed No.1 in poor shape. If, heaven forbid, you wanted to put a scope on it, then a charger bridged model is essential, so that you can fit a no-gunsmithing (i.e., no-drilling) scope mount.


"What would be the capacity of the fixed magazine version such as the Manton in the catalog picture posted earlier? Is it indeed fixed?"

To my knowledge, there are no Lee Speeds with fixed magazines. The magazines are detachable.

When you get your rifle, be sure to post here. Thanks!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: jc5]
      #124106 - 15/01/09 05:18 AM

This was an e-mail that I sent to jc5 in response to his email to me, but I thought the forum might find this info interesting as well, so am posting it for all to enjoy!

Like you, I have also been researching commercial Lee Speeds for a number of years & have been privileged to own several. I also have been working on an article for some time, however, it is now into several hundred pages, with scans from the old catalogues, etc., so it is, unfortunately, much too long for an article, so now I'm thinking it may very well turn into a coffee-table style book, along the lines of Winfers' books on Single Shots.

As for the BSA I posted some info on Nitro Forums, here is some additional info.

The number on the top right hand side of the action strap is S 194xx. The same number, albeit without the small letter S, appears on the bottom rear of the barrel. There are also several numbers in a column, each underneath an inverted V. They are from back to front: 84 56, 57, 52. In front of the barrel re-inforce, there is a P & in front of that ~ 1" a C. As I previously mentioned, the right top of the barrel has 303 then the 1916 proof marks BM under a crown, both on the barrel & the action, underneath which is NITRO PROVED on the barrel. On the front trigger guard screw boss, are the letters TS. The only other markings on the receiver are the B. S. A. C o. on the left action strap.

The only markings on the bolt are the serial number on the bottom of the bolt handle & the same proof mark (BM under a crown) marked on the barrel & receiver.

I believe the charger guide was added later, based on the position of the ejector screw, partially on the charger guide.

I have owned several #4's & #4b's, but the wood buttstock pattern was always different, some had military shaped butts, albeit with chequering and round sling swivel studs, some had military style sights and some had round knob type half-pistol grips, whereas this one has the #1 & #2 style pistol grip with horn cap fitted, the forward-swept flat top bolt handle, the cape sights.


Each of the Lee sporters I have been temporary caretaker of has been different. I also have in my small collection a Lee-Speed Patents B.S.A.Co., with the small chain on the 10 round magazine, with FOR CORDITE ONLY at the 11 o'clock position on the receiver ring, and PATENT 19.145'90 on the outside of the bolt head. The dust cover is engraved ALEX MARTIN GLASGOW & ABERDEEN in a scroll ribbon. This one has a 24 1/4" barrel with a Metford type Knox form, but with a circled E on the front of the knox form, denoting Enfield rifling. The serial number on the Knox form & barrel (106xx) does not match the number shown on the top right hand side of the action strap, which is G9xx. I believe the action strap numbers refer to a patent use number. There is a different number again on the trigger guard, engraved in large numbers 274xx, which likely was Alex Martin's serial number. I think the number on the barrel & top receiver ring is likely BSA's numbers.


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124110 - 15/01/09 05:50 AM

Forgot to add, the B.S.A. Co. #2 referred to above also has a silver inital oval inlaid into the bottom of the buttstock, midway between the sling swivel & the recoil pad.

As for barrel ribs, I agree they are really not functional. On a W.W.Greener #1 that I had, the groups immediately started wandering when the barrel heated up & there were no pressure points on the fore-end bedding that I could see. Same thing on an Army & Navy Martini-Enfield with a barrel rib. Yet on a W.J.Jeffery Martini-Enfield sporter carbine, and an arsenal refurbished, newly re-barrelled military Martini-Enfield (25" barrel), both with no rib, accuracy continued to be fine even after I foolishly let the barrels warm up too much (if they did it in Zululand & the Transvaal, it must be ok right) ;-)

On my William Powell & Son, built on a SMLE #1 Mk III, which has a Kynoch 303 case head inlet into the under-side of the beautifully dark marble-cake fore-end wood, ~1" rearward of the forend tip, and a barrel band sling swivel mounted. This is also built on a B.S.A. Co. manufactured action, albeit with later proof marks, that was likely only retailed by Powell. I used to have a Kahles 1.1-4 scope mounted on that rifle, but am going to be replacing that with a Zeiss 3-9x40 shortly, as my eyes are not getting any younger, and this is one of my favourite hunting rifles, next to my Holland & Holland #4 Lightweight DeLuxe in .318 N.E. This rifle, which does not have a rib, regularly shoots .75" 3 shot groups at 100 yds., using new Herter's brass, 43.5 grains of RLR15, WLR primers & Remington 180 grain SPCL .311" bulk bullets, Sierra 180 grain SPT .311" bullets, Hornady 174 grain .312" RNSP or SR Custom 200 grain Semi-pointed custom bullets. Most of these bullets are not seated to within .030" of the rifling, because of magazine length limitations. I have not yet tried any of my few remaining Speer .311" 200 grain Grand Slam bullets or my 206 grain .314" SPGC lino cast bullets, but beleive they will also shoot well, given my experience thus far. My Churchill, built on a B.S.A. Co. #1 Mk III* action, will also shoot well, although it only gets ~1" 3 shot groups. The rifling in both barrels shows some wear, but were thoroughly cleaned to remove the copper fouling. As well, I necked up new brass with a .35 caliber expander & then neck-sized them to only close the bolt, to preclude the brass lengthening & splitting. After that, they get sized using a Lee collett die & I usually get 8-10 loadings per case. Of the 200 cases from 1 lot that I purchased, I had started to sort them by weight, but gave up when all cases in the lot were only +/- 1.75 grains apart. I also removed the burr from the inside of the primer flash holes & reamed the primer pockets square. I used to shoot benchrest, so am pretty anal when it comes to loading & preparation, but it does demonstrate that these ~100 year old rifles can still shoot. I'm also thinking about re-barreling a Ruger #1A in .303 with a Shilen match barrel, in a featherweight 26" contour, with battery sights (the proper name for so-called Express sights) and all the other bells and whistles, like a folding H & H style gloaming sight, trap pistol-grip cap, chequered steel butt-plate, with trap, to come up with a cheap Farquharson.

Can you tell I love the .303 Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/4" cartridge?

Happy shooting!

Jim


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124122 - 15/01/09 08:16 AM

Hey, how do I upload photos to the site so I don't have to bug anyone else to email them & then have them up-load the photos, as my email server won't send large files and the photos I take are usually around 2 1/2 megs in size.

I am presuming, of course, that most of you would want to see some other British eye-candy!!!

Thanks,

Jim


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124126 - 15/01/09 09:42 AM

Jim,
I use Photobucket - it is really easy.
Here are the other photos of Old rifle nut's Lee Sporters:



















--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (15/11/10 11:20 PM)


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124127 - 15/01/09 09:45 AM

Here is the advertisement picture of the one I have bought:



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (15/11/10 11:20 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124163 - 15/01/09 06:54 PM

" however, it is now into several hundred pages, with scans from the old catalogues, etc., so it is, unfortunately, much too long for an article, so now I'm thinking it may very well turn into a coffee-table style book, along the lines of Winfers' books on Single Shots."

ok, when will it come out, I am waiting

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Old_rifle_nut
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Posts: 100
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: lancaster]
      #124208 - 16/01/09 06:54 AM

Patience comes to those who wait!

Actually, every time I start to believe I am ready to start editing the final draft, I keep learning something new. The title & outline of chapters, however, is as follows:

The Sporting Lees
(Lee Metfords, Long Lees, S.M.L.E. No. 1 Mk. III, & No. 1 Mk. III*’s)

Introduction
History
Rifle Types
Description
Retailers
Grades & Options
Sights
The Cartridges
Accessories
Competitive Rifles & Cartridges
Ballistics
Bibliography


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124232 - 16/01/09 12:39 PM

Well, you can add Hussey to your list of retailers - that is who retailed mine.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124241 - 16/01/09 01:24 PM

Huvius:

Nice rifle.

Thanks for the info, but a few more details, please.

Is it an H.J. Hussey Limited, Hussey & Hussey Limited, Harrison & Hussey Limited, Ogden, Smith & Hussey or Lang & Hussey Limited?

Is there a barrel address?

Thanks,

Jim


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124243 - 16/01/09 01:48 PM

Not in my hands yet.
Should be here in a couple days though.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: jc5]
      #124709 - 21/01/09 12:59 PM

Quote:



"What would be the capacity of the fixed magazine version such as the Manton in the catalog picture posted earlier? Is it indeed fixed?"

To my knowledge, there are no Lee Speeds with fixed magazines. The magazines are detachable.

When you get your rifle, be sure to post here. Thanks!




I guess there is always something to learn here...
I got my Hussey Ltd. Lee Speed today, and man, is it cool!

It does have a fixed magazine - a Harris Magazine - patent #10239, my rifle is patent use No. 30.
This magazine has a lever on the left side of the forend which lowers the bolt follower. I suspect that this is to relieve the spring pressure so the unfired shells can be "poured" out by inverting the rifle.
Is there any info out there on this feature?













--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (15/11/10 11:21 PM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124716 - 21/01/09 02:04 PM

Huvius:
There is some info on Punchard's magazine charger (Harris patents) in Skennerton's "The Lee Enfield Story".
That system allows the cartridges to be poured in to the magazine when the lever is depressed,
and racked-up correctly when the lever is released.

I have one of these too, check out my previous post here.
They are truly marvellous things!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Marrakai]
      #124719 - 21/01/09 02:41 PM

Marrakai,
Thanks for the link! For some reason I had not seen that before.

Your and my guns could nearly be twins! The only noticable differences being that your safety has wider grooves in it, and your magazine lever has a bigger swath cut out of the wood than mine.
Other than those two minor details, dead on the same. Yours looks to be in higher condition.

The more I handle this gun, the more I admire it. Cannot wait to see how it shoots!
I will try the loading you have listed.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124793 - 22/01/09 04:04 AM

Huvius:

Nice rifle.

So, I've now got the following as retailers, based on rifles I have owned or have seen. Can anyone add any names to the list?

Retailer Address
ARMY & NAVY Co-operative Society Ltd. 105 Victoria Street London
F. Beesley 2 St. James's Sreet, LONDON
Bentley & Playfair 315 SUMMER LANE
Bentley & Playfair LTD COLMORE WKS. SUMMER LANE
BSA & M. Co.
B.S.A. Co.
John Blanch & Son London Gracechurch Street
John Blanch & Son London 20 Cullen Street London
Thomas Bland & Sons 2 William IV Street London
C. G. Bonehill LTD Belmont Row, Birmingham
Charles Boswell 126, STRAND, LONDON, W.C.
CHURCHILL Ltd. 8 Agar Street., Strand, LONDON
CHURCHILL Ltd. Leicester Square, LONDON
CHURCHILL (GUNMAKERS) Ltd. LONDON S.W. 2
Cogswell & Harrison Ltd. 142 New Bond Street London
Cogswell & Harrison Ltd. 226 Strand London
Cogswell & Harrison 141 NEW BOND ST. & 226 STRAND LONDON
Cogswell & Harrison 168 Piccadilly, LONDON
COOMBES COMPANY Ltd. RANGOON
W.W. Greener Ltd. 68 HAYMARKET, LONDON S.W. 1
HOLLAND & HOLLAND, Limited SHOT & REGULATED BY 98, New Bond Street, London, W.
HOLLIS BENTLEY & PLAYFAIR LTD COLMORE WKS. Lench St.
HOLLIS BENTLEY & PLAYFAIR 16/17 LOVEDAY ST.
Holloway & Co. Vesey Street Gun Works, Birmingham
Holloway & Naughton Ltd 10 Vesey Street
HUSSEY LTD. 88 JERMYN STREET LONDON. S.W.
W.J. JEFFERY & Co. 13, King Street, St. James's STREET, LONDON, S.W.
W.J. JEFFERY & Co. 13 King Street St. James's Picadilly
W.J. JEFFERY & Co. 60, QUEEN VICTORIA STREET, LONDON, E.C.
L.S.A. Co.
Charles Lancaster
Alexander Martin Aberdeen & Glasgow
Charles Osborne & Co. Ltd.
Parker-Hale Ltd. BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND
WILLIAM POWELL & SON 35, CARRS LANE, BIRMINGHAM
J. Rigby
J. Robertson 4 Dansey Yard, Wardour St., W
Victoria Small Arms Co. 226 Strand, LONDON.
WESTLEY RICHARDS & CO. LTD. GUN & RIFLE MAKERS Birmingham, England
James Woodward
Wm. Moore & Grey 165 Piccadilly, London
Watson Bros. Bond St. London


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124795 - 22/01/09 04:09 AM

Hey, I just noticed something. If the Mauser and the Mannlicher aficionados can each have their own forum, how come we can't. I would imagine there would have to be as many Lee based sporters as either Mauser or Mannlicher-based sporters, although maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part. At least if we had our own forum, all of the info we have would be in one place, & easier to find / search.

What thinks you all?


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #124830 - 22/01/09 10:50 AM

How can these rifles be dated?
Am I right in assuming that if the patent for the magazine on my rifle is from 1900, and my rifle is use #30, then was my rifle most likely built in 1900?

I bet there is as much interest in Lee Speeds as Mannlichers, but seems like Mausers are way more popular. Probably due to rarity.
BTW, how many Lee Speed sporters were made?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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jc5
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Huvius]
      #124842 - 22/01/09 12:25 PM

Huvius,

Dating these rifles is difficult because there are so many variations, so many options. In your case, however, it's easy. I can barely make out a Jermyn Street address from your pic. Hussey Ltd was at that address 1912-14.

Cheers,
Jc5


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Old_rifle_nut
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: jc5]
      #126748 - 12/02/09 10:37 AM

Huvius:

I think I may have missed a couple of your posts, as I cannot see where you posted the patents #'s. You mention the patent date on your 1900 and rifle use #30 indicating your rifle's manufacturing date as 1900. Where are these #'s located on your rifle? Are you speaking of the patent use date for the Punchard's mag. filler?

Thanks,

Jim


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Huvius
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #126778 - 12/02/09 05:14 PM

On the Harris magazine, there is the patent number (#10239) and just below it is "No. 30".
You can just make it out in the photo posted above. I suspect this means that the rifle is the 30th example utilizing this particular patent.
I got the patent date from Marrakai's post on his similar rifle which he has linked to in his post above.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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xausa
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Re: Manton, India Restrictions, BSA sole manufacturer? [Re: jc5]
      #129282 - 11/03/09 11:05 AM

jc5,

Over the weekend I picked up what I take to be a BSA Lee Speed. Checkered sporter stock and express sights, horn or ebony foreend tip.

It is marked BSA and 311, with the second "1" overstruck to a "5". What do I have in the way of caliber, 8X50R or 8X57R? Or a .303 opened up to use .315 bullets? Bore is rough, but supposedly it is a shooter. Price was right.


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xausa
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Re: Manton, India Restrictions, BSA sole manufacturer? [Re: xausa]
      #129340 - 12/03/09 09:03 AM

The plot thickens. A .303 round chambers easily and a CerroSafe cast of the bore at the muzzle reveals .311"-.312" groove diameter.

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jc5
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Re: 8mm [Re: xausa]
      #129368 - 12/03/09 05:45 PM

Regarding the .315 (8mm) chambering, I think the following thread will answer your questions:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=75712&an=0&page=0#Post75712

This is the thread called "8mm Lee Speed."

It was NOT the 8x57 cartridge. And John Walter seems to have it wrong in "Rifles of the World" when he lists 8x51R as a Lee Speed chambering. The evidence suggests it was the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge. BSA literature specifies it as a 240 grain bullet, muzzle velocity of 2030 fps, muzzle energy of 2199 foot pounds. Manton (as well as BSA) advertised it as the .315. As other posters have said, it was popular because of the ban on .303 ammunition in India.

What little I can contribute here is this: the rare Lee Speeds I have seen in this caliber were marked "8 mm" on the barrel, not ".315".


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lancaster
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Re: 8mm [Re: jc5]
      #129383 - 13/03/09 12:24 AM

it seems to be that baning the 303 in allways the law
http://www.gunaccessory.com/IOF/315_rifle.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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jc5
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Re: 8mm [Re: lancaster]
      #129389 - 13/03/09 02:25 AM

WoW! What a great link! Thanks Lancaster.

I had read about the IOF .315 but had not seen their site. (Someone should volunteer to clean up their grammar and help them post better pics!) It makes me happy to see the Lee still in production.

Is there an owner who can give us a detailed report on one of these rifles? Does anyone outside India own one of these? Can they be imported to the US?

I know that others have posted this info before--I'm just trying to sum it up here for convenience. The Indian .303 caliber ban was established in 1899, not just for .303 but for any service caliber. Some years later, the ban on .450 ammunition was relaxed, but the .303 ban seems to have remained in place ever since, even after Independence. The stated purpose was to prevent illegal gun running on the NW Frontier. Ah, gun control, so well-intentioned, so effective, so impartial... reminds me of being a kid in school when one kid raises trouble and the whole class gets punished.

For a few years there was an exemption for serving British army officers, but even they were limited to 200 rounds per year.


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