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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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jc5
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Manton, India Restrictions, BSA sole manufacturer? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #95336 - 28/01/08 06:37 PM

Old_rifle_nut,

Yes, please post pictures. I've been trying to research all I can about the Lee Speeds, and I've found the threads regarding them here at the Nitro Express forums to be very useful. There's another thread where I posted some catalog pics over at http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=23226

Another company that offered Lee Speeds was Manton & Co.. They advertised the BSA Lee Speed on p.70 of their 1926-7 Price List, calling it a "BSA Lee Enfield Sporting Rifle." This catalog has been reprinted by Cornell Publications. The catalog is for their Calcutta office and all prices are in rupees. It is interesting that they only offer it in the .315 caliber, because by 1926 the .303 had long since been banned in India (for info on this ban, see "British Single Shot Rifles, Vol. 3" by Wal Winfer, pp. 242-244.) Also, the Manton catalog (p.3) has a section that is full of the odious "gun control" disclaimers and warnings that we have come to know in the present era: "licenses", exemptions, caliber restrictions, mailing restrictions, liability limitations. It's all so depressingly modern. I'm not sure if such restrictions had already been enacted in Britain by this time, but India was certainly in a heightened state of anxiety regarding independence movements and unrest, so it makes sense that the Gov't would seek to keep the people disarmed and reduce the chances of military ammo finding its way into the hands of undesirables. No 2nd Amendment in India!

Anyway, there was a Lee Speed Manton rifle for sale on Gunbroker awhile back and it was indeed stamped "Manton." I saved the info on it for research purposes, and it read as follows:
...
“BSA Co” stamped on the action strap on the right side. “375 EX” and “CORDITE 40-
270 MAX” stamped on the right side of the barrel just forward of the barrel step. “MANTON & CO.
GUN MAKERS LONDON & CALCUTTA” prominently and sharply engraved on top of the barrel rib.
...
I wonder just want each retailer had to pay BSA for each rifle they sold with their own stamp? And should we assume that BSA was indeed the sole manufacturer of ALL Lee Speeds, because they alone had the machinery to turn out these rifles? That would make sense, but I would love to see this confirmed with some evidence. Most Lee Speeds that I have seen do not exhibit any variations beyond what BSA offered in their 1911 catalog--barrel length, safety, rib, stock, magazine, caliber, etc. This seems to support the notion that BSA was the sole manufacturer, because no else offered any substantial variations that were not offered by BSA themselves. I would love to see evidence to the contrary (beyond the retailer's stamp, of course). However, I am just starting to build up a collection of old catalogs, so there are many sources still to be examined... in that other thread I mentioned above, there is a commercial LSA rifle, and it is stamped LSA and not BSA. The Manton gun is stamped BSA. Perhaps certain resellers simply offered them as BSAs, like Manton did--while others wanted only their own name to be present. (Maybe they paid a higher license fee to BSA for this privilege? I'm guessing here). I cannot imagine that W.W. Greener, for example, would ever sell a firearm that was marked "BSA" anywhere on it.

Here's one last item that may perhaps be an exception. In their 1912 Centennial Catalog, Westley Richards offered "Sporting Lee-Metford Rifles," which featured engraving that looks unlike anything BSA offered, with an Express sight that seems to have an extra leaf, and a buttstock that has a pronounced cheek rest. So I would guess that Westley Richards added these features themselves (at some expense, I'd guess), but it doesn't mean they produced the rifle in their own factory. However, get this: the rifle also has a "detachable barrel"! Now that is unusual. Would BSA have manufactured that, or would WR have made these in their own factory? I'd love to see one up close... Anyway, this catalog page came to my attention because it was reproduced on page 181 of "The British Falling Bock Breechloading Rife from 1865" 2nd. ed. by Jonathan Kirton. (Why a Lee rifle in a book about single-shots? Because the WR catalog page had a Farquharson-type rifle on it, and the Lee just happened to be on the same page!)


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Nakihunter
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Re: Manton, India Restrictions, BSA sole manufacturer? [Re: jc5]
      #95338 - 28/01/08 07:27 PM

Interesting post. I had heard the 8X57J (318 cal) called the 315 many times in India. In fact I have hardly heard the 8X57 term in India.

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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #116993 - 15/10/08 04:37 PM

Carpetsahib, if you have the time, could you please post a top view of your reworked #4?. I'd very much like to see what the top of the receiver looks like. I'm currently doing something like yours. I've a #4MKI receiver, 375 barrel with 1x12 twist, and a box full of never fired IVI 303 brass. So any help you could give will be greatly appreciated. I can't hunt anymore but like to make my own cast bullets and like the 375/303 cartridge. Hopefully will be able to do my own barrel work as this is a first for me. Thanks,Frank

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117191 - 19/10/08 12:31 AM

I'll be happy to post some photos, although it may take me a couple of days to do so.
Carpetsahib


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117193 - 19/10/08 02:07 AM

OK, here are photos:











Edited by CptCurl (03/12/08 11:23 PM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117205 - 19/10/08 05:52 AM

Here are some pics of a No.4 that I built sometime back. Notice the short forend which is only about 8" long (measured from the front guard screw). The stock is american walnut stained with nitric acid and finished with alkanet oil (of my own manufacture). The apeture sight is a Redfield (if I remember correctly). This made up into a fine stalking rifle in a fine caliber - .303. The safety lever was modified by adding a checkered button at the end. It was a really neat touch.





Edited by CptCurl (03/12/08 11:24 PM)


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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117229 - 19/10/08 03:50 PM

Carpetsahib, many thanks for taking the time to post the photo's. Made things a lot more clearer. Was going to ask how you plugged the pin holes for the charger bridge, but doing it your way solved that problem. Again thanks. Frank

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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #117286 - 20/10/08 03:47 PM

Carpetsahib, there was a picture in the 1964 edition of "wiliams Gun Sight Catalog" of a #4 that has a similar treatment regarding the removal of the charger bridge. Made the difference between night and day as to how the finished rifle came out. Spoke to a gunsmith about this and he said as long as you keep pressures at factory then one would have nothing to worry about.Frank

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117316 - 21/10/08 03:34 AM

There is a plugged hole in the top of the left rail, but that will be almost invisible when finished.

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117377 - 22/10/08 12:47 AM

Quote:

Carpetsahib, there was a picture in the 1964 edition of "wiliams Gun Sight Catalog" of a #4 that has a similar treatment regarding the removal of the charger bridge. Made the difference between night and day as to how the finished rifle came out. Spoke to a gunsmith about this and he said as long as you keep pressures at factory then one would have nothing to worry about.Frank


Yes, I have the Williams Publication you refer to - How To Convert Military Rifles. They do have a nice article on the SMLEs and No.4s.

You will note how I reduced the height of the left hand rail to approximate the height of a No.1 action. I had in mind to radius the entire top of the No.4 action like unto a No.1, but the presence of the charger bridge hole eliminated that option. I'm sure that would be feasible if one were to weld the holes, but I didn't have that option (didn't want to spend the money).

Another thing that I like to do is to reduce the magazine capacity by 3 rounds or so. That is, I cut the bottom of the magazine off parallel to the factory line, such that the bottom line of the magazine is tangential to the radius of the trigger guard bow. When I first started working with No.1s and 4s, I cut the magazine off at the stock line; that just never seemed to look right. The shortened angled magazine seems to be sleeker and more appropriate.


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Story
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117392 - 22/10/08 04:54 AM

Carpetsahib,
Nice work - where did you get the walnut blank for the completed No 4?

I've got a pre-98 Lee Metford that's already been bubba'd, that I'll turn into a faux Lee Speed after I get home. For you guys building your own, I picked up one of these from SARCO

MSR219 MK10 MSR 1 Fixed 2 Folding Leaf Express Sight (round bottom) 3/$138.95 $49.95

MSR221 MK10 MSR 3 Folding Leaf Express Sight (round bottom) 3/$138.95 $49.95
http://www.sarcoinc.com/mauser.html

For what it's worth, I also have a .303 BSA 'Cape Rifle' - this has a 30' barrel, same length as the Lee Metford service rifles. While mentioned in period catalogs, so far I've seen exactly two others like this (for sale in the UK at http://www.wdlr.org.uk/stensby/firearms.htm) with a barrel rib.


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Story]
      #117394 - 22/10/08 05:43 AM

To tell the truth, I have been disappointed with all of the semi-inletted stocks that I have seen. I find I have better results if I just work from a squared blank for both the forend and the buttstock. That being said, this particular buttstock, if I remember correctly, was a Fajen. The forend was from a square blank.

Regarding the Folding Leaf Express Sights, do you have a picture? These would be of interest in my nest project and I am curious about the quality of construction and materials.

Thanks,
Carpetsahib


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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117416 - 22/10/08 03:45 PM

Carpetsahib,your wood working slills are really great. I had posted another reply earlier this evening and don't see it here. Guess the gremlins got it. After doing some checking my action is actually a #5 jungle carbine action. Not a #4MKI as I had previously stated. But should be amply strong for the 375/303. You mentioned magazines. One gunbook showed a cutdown #4 magazine that left the bottom open. You the reader of this article would then make a flat floorplate out of 1/8" flatstock and that would be a sporter conversion. I'm planning on using a Santa Fe 5 round magazine for my project. Where I stand right now is the action body is basically in the white. Will be removing the clip charger guide
with the milling attachment that I bought for my sears 6" craftsman lathe. Then some file work to clean up the cuts and finish off to either 360 or 400 grit finish. I plan on using origional #4 MKI wood on this rifle. The bbl will be heavier than a standard #4 bbl. Not a bull barrel so's you folks can relax. Thought I'd get the dimensions off a L39A1 barrel and see how thick it would be at 24" long. or if someone knows of a nice L42A1 bbl floating around looking for a good home let me know. Bore should be in as best comdition as possible. Will have to wait until november so's I can get some money to pay for it or if one is having problems with the bore I can get it rebored to 375 caliber and get it chambered. Finish will be bead blasted then blued. And will see how one can get installed a set of redfield olympic rear sights and possibly a globe front sight. Since I don't hunt anymore, will spend my time trying out the various 375 cast bullet molds of which I have two so far. Jacketed bullets in 375 that I have are the sierra 220 for the winchester 94 in 375 win, and 3 boxes speer 235 grain for the 375 H&H magnum. Sorry to be so long winded. Frank


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Story
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Old_rifle_nut]
      #117427 - 22/10/08 07:04 PM

Quote:

It was the 8 x 50R Mannlicher cartridge, same as in the original Mannlicher Model 1895 rifle / carbine.




I saw a .315 Lee Speed (marked 8mm) go for a very reasonable price last year. Ithought about getting into a bidding war with the fellow who did get it, but I knew him to be 'into' 8X50R type rifles and figured I'd stick with my .303s.

In case anyone was looking for decent 215 projectiles, the US (NJ) firm Hawk Precision Bullets offers some at a reasonable price.

Edited by Story (23/10/08 05:07 PM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117448 - 23/10/08 12:46 AM

Thanks for your compliments. I alter Enfield magazines by cutting the bottom off at the desired angle with a hacksaw, then cleaning up the cut with a platen grinder. After everything is rendered flat and square, I solder an 11ga plate onto the bottom of the magazine. My preferred method is to tin the bottom plate and the magazine separately, then place the bottom plate on blocks and place the magazine on top. Then I heat the whole assembly and allow the magazine to seat itself. After that, its a matter of sawing and grinding off the excess metal and cleaning up the solder fillets. If it is done correctly, the solder joint is very thin and non-obtrusive.

I'm glad you have a milling attachment for your lathe. I have to to my trimming with hacksaw, file and chisel! My method builds muscle and patience in about equal proportions .

I like the idea of a .375 on the No.4 action. How about a cartridge based on the .444 Marlin case? That works well with everything from 7x57R, .308, .311, 8x57R. .338, 9x57R, 9.3x57R, the aforementioned .375 and even a .400. Another thing that I have considered is a .40-65 Win. That is interesting because I already have dies, cases, loaded ammo and even a barrel on hand.

Carpetsahib


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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117469 - 23/10/08 06:00 AM

Carpetsahib, When you cut down a magazine how do you treat the magazine spring?. Cut it down? or some other way. I have an old sante fe 5 round magazine which will get refinished when the rest of the rifle gets done. Blueing is starting to fade as well as a few "uh o's". Funny thing about the milling attachement. Got the lathe when I got out of the navy in '64. Bought the attachment a few years later. Used it exactly once. Because of the rigidity of the set up you can only take small cuts. No blazing away like a bridgeport. And its limited as to how long a cut you can take. Did use it to take the ears off a 1917 enfield for a friend. Now that took awhile. Was thinking of getting some 1/4" flat stock and after cutting off the bottom of the magazine, file the flat stock to fill the opening and slight belly in it. I may not be much with a lathe, but am pretty decent with a file. Good old norwegian milling machine. That also builds muscle and patience although maybe not in equal proportions. A lot of file here, try it and file some more. The action body hat I'm using is not a #4 MKI as origionally thought. Its a #5 made by BSA in 1945. Marked M47C Has england stamped on the left side of the butt socket. Since it was given to me quite a few years ago, finally decided it was time to use it. Would prefer a martini henry .303 action but they are kinda scarce here in louisiana. Ah well one can only dream. Frank

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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117470 - 23/10/08 06:42 AM

My method only reduces the magazine capacity by 2 or 3 rounds. It may not be necessary to shorten the magazine spring at all; on the other hand, one can easily shorten it if there is a tendency for the shells to pop out the top. In any event, I should think that removing one bend would be sufficient.

Maybe we should have an association or society devoted to users of (Norwegian, German, Swiss) Milling Machines. A skilled practitioner can truly work wonders with a file, if one has the patience.

Using a 1/4" plate for a filler will work fine. I thought about doing that myself, but decided that it was too much work and that the other method suited me better.


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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117492 - 23/10/08 02:11 PM

Carpetsahib, yes you could call it "The ancient order of filers". That would be not very far from the truth. But before I get carried away with removing charger bridge I'm going to use that new fangled invention the dremel moto-tool. This will take out the bulk of the material before the action body goes into the milling attachment. Spent the better part of two hours polishing just the feed ramp. Not much room to get a piece of 320 grit silicon carbide paper backed with a die maker's stone. Found out it was way easier to take various grades of silicon carbide paper wrapped around a pencil at the eraser end. Gives just enough pressure to remove scratches without having to worry about creating grooves where there shouldn't be. Call it an theraputic exercise. I think you have created a monster of sorts with your Lee Speed photos. There seems to be a lot of interest in them. They are beautiful rifles wether they were made generations ago or done by craftsman today. Good on you as the aussies say. Before I forget CRS don't you know. The left flat when taken down like yours is creates a perfect spot for attaching a scope. Since you don't have to contend with the charger bridge being there you can mount a scope much lower. Scopes!!!!!!!, I can hear the gnashing of teeth right now. But I have 62 year old eyes someday due for cataract replacement. Have a nice weaver steel tubed 4x that would look right at home. Frank

Edited by FrankS (23/10/08 02:20 PM)


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Story
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117499 - 23/10/08 05:10 PM

Quote:

Thanks for your compliments. I alter Enfield magazines by cutting the bottom off at the desired angle with a hacksaw, then cleaning up the cut with a platen grinder. After everything is rendered flat and square, I solder an 11ga plate onto the bottom of the magazine. My preferred method is to tin the bottom plate and the magazine separately, then place the bottom plate on blocks and place the magazine on top. Then I heat the whole assembly and allow the magazine to seat itself. After that, its a matter of sawing and grinding off the excess metal and cleaning up the solder fillets. If it is done correctly, the solder joint is very thin and non-obtrusive.




Carpetsahib,
Look closely at the magazine profile of the lower Lee Speed - there's a slight 'belly' to it.
http://www.wdlr.org.uk/stensby/images/303_rifles.jpg
I'll see if I can dig up the advertisement with the illustrations, showing side views of their five round magazines.

Quote:

I like the idea of a .375 on the No.4 action. How about a cartridge based on the .444 Marlin case? That works well with everything from 7x57R, .308, .311, 8x57R. .338, 9x57R, 9.3x57R, the aforementioned .375 and even a .400. Another thing that I have considered is a .40-65 Win. That is interesting because I already have dies, cases, loaded ammo and even a barrel on hand.




Doitdoitdoitdoit!!!!

One suggestion on using No 4 actions and bolts - if you want a more-classic profile, see if you can fit the earlier No 1 cocking piece to the No 4 bolt (I've seen these done by accident or necessity before).

Here's a Lee Speed with what appears to be an original 10 round magazine (as well as a barrel rib and hooded front sight)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=112322209
and here's a .375 Lee Speed with the five or so capacity magazine
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976945556/Gun..._2_5_Flange.htm
Again, note that it seems to have a 'belly'

Edited by Story (23/10/08 06:22 PM)


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Story
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Story]
      #117505 - 23/10/08 06:17 PM

For a real classic photo, check out this:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/31/97104495_f5623890e8.jpg?v=0

Visit to England for the Coronation of King Edward VII, 12 August 1902.
flickr.com/photos/ethioblogger/97104495/

Caption: Ras Mäkonnen's cloak and shirt probably made by Serouphi Ebeyan, dress-maker to the Ethiopian Court.

Weapons:

Curved Ethiopian sword in leather scabbard;

(Rifle) probably Lee Speed .303 bolt action rifle(known variously in Amharic as dimoftär, dimotfär, or dimetfor).

Edited by Story (23/10/08 06:28 PM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: FrankS]
      #117530 - 24/10/08 01:30 AM

Ah yes, telescopes! Marvelous instruments - or so I'm told.... Seriously, a low mounted scope would be quite nice on one of these rifles. A G&H, Jaeger, ECHO, Weaver or Pachmayr side mount would offer a low scope position and allow the easy transition to iron sights. I greatly favor Lyman Alaskans or even Weaver 3-30s for my rifles. Just look at the Mannlicher Schoenauer that I have pictured in my post in the Custom Mannlicher Schoenauer thread in this forum. It has an Alaskan scope mounted about as low as is possible.

Regarding Dremel Tools: these are quite useful but I find that their grinding wheels are soft and are not very durable. I think an actual die grinder - either electric or air operated - may be a better choice for this work since the grinding wheels seem to last longer. Probably the best set-up would be to use a tool post grinder mounted on a lathe. Precise contouring would then be quite easy.


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Story]
      #117531 - 24/10/08 01:35 AM

Thanks for the photos. I added them to my collection. I like your idea of using a No.1 cocking piece on the No.4 to give it a better appearance. I'll look into that possibility.

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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Story]
      #117560 - 24/10/08 09:25 AM

Story, one step ahead of you. Hopefully can locate the #1 style cocking piece for my project rifle. Gave a lot of thought about the 375/303 cartridge. But when I found a box of IVI canadian brass in my stash. And origionally thought that I only had a few hundred cases, after opening the box it was more like 500 or so. No brainer there. Frank

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FrankS
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #117563 - 24/10/08 09:44 AM

Carpetsahib, beautiful mannlicher!!!. I have a greek one sitting in the safe and has the usual rusted, corroded and beyond hope bore. No amount of cleaning, chemicals, abrasives or other means short of destruction have had no effects. That was bought many years ago in the hopes that it could be resurrected into some former shadow of itself. Sadly the years have gone by and there she still sits.
I have to agree with you regarding the dremel stones. I normally use it for sharpening my mower blades. But occasionally it comes in handy for firearm related chores. Actually regarding removal of the charger bridge it would be way better to use a mill. With radius cutters would eliminate a lot of hand work and give a more finished appearance. Sort of like when one removes the ears off a P14 enfield and recontours the receiver. But still a lot of work. Did one once. All by hand. Frank


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Caprivi
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Re: Lee Speed Sporter [Re: Story]
      #119162 - 19/11/08 03:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It was the 8 x 50R Mannlicher cartridge, same as in the original Mannlicher Model 1895 rifle / carbine.




Years back, long before I had any idea what I was looking at, I remember a LEE sporter in, I believe Alfred Gallifent's basement shop, that had the barrel marked as a 500/320 NE. It stuck with for what ever reason. Sounded cool. Only recently thru a Farq/Henry/Fraser collecting friend did I find out that the 500/320 is the 8x50R.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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