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45s_save_lives
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45-70 LA on DG
      #52891 - 21/03/06 09:41 AM

I have been reading some posts here and other places about how it is a stunt or foolish to hunt DG with a Marlin Guide Gun (1895G).Full disclaimer: I have never hunted african DG. Now, I will be the first to admit that with factory spec ammo this is quite foolish. There is neither the velocity, bullet weight, or the bullet construction for this. Even with handloads in a Marlin you are limited because most bullet manufacturers dont make bullets suitable for this that will give the right cartridge overall length to function properly in a LA. It can be done easily with a Ruger #1, but I am not so sure I would like to hunt DG with a singleshot. Back to the Marlin. There is a company called Garrett Cartridges that makes specialty ammo for the 44mag and 45-70 only. Randy Garrett makes his own bullet molds and his own alloy. He calls these loads "hammerheads". They are offered in different weights and velocities for different applications. He makes a 540gr super hard cast hammerhead at about 1550 fps just for the 1895G (guide gun). A man named Vince Lupo has already taken all of the big 5 plus hippo with it. It is also very popular in North America for large bears as well as bison. I reccomend that you all check out his web page and read some of the testimonials. Many famous people in the hunting/shooting field have used them and love them. There are even verified accounts of it penetrating through a bison bull from front to rear complately. I dont care who you are thats IMPRESSIVE. I am not sure how famialiar you are with bison but they are much larger and tougher than buffalo,, african or asian. They weigh a hair over a ton, have a thick winter coat of fur and a thick layer of fat. In the case of bulls they are also very mean and cantankerous. Maybe not as much as an African buff but they probably match an asian for temper. But for some reason their temper is not as famous as other large bovines. Maybe because they have not been widely hunted in about a hundred years and when they were they were not really hunted they were masacred from afar with a hail of lead. I personally would not stalk within 50 yds of a bison bull with a sharps or similar rifle loaded with old spec 45-70 (or larger)ammo. The guide gun sort of combines good features from the double and the bolt gun. Its light and handy. Also well balanced. It has fairly quick follow up shots that allow you to keep your eyes on the target and not really alter your grip on the rifle. And match a bolt gun for capacity. Now I freely admit I would rather use a double in a classic caliber but this simply is not in some peoples' budgets. If you have a Guide Gun and wish to pursue DG, pick up some Garretts and practice and then go for it. As for having a PH back you up, I see no difference in a PH backing you up when you use a Marlin or a double 577 NE. Also I would not be afraid to do it with a Marlin alone if it were legal. A bow is another story, I am not so sure how I feel about that, I am not entirely sure it should be legal. But thats for another post some other time. I am interested in hearing all opinions on this. Thanks and good hunting!!

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500Nitro
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #52893 - 21/03/06 10:07 AM

45s_save_lives

You know how to start WW III

I am not going to get into the 45-70 argument
but I will query one of your comments.

"As for having a PH back you up, I see no difference in a PH backing
you up when you use a Marlin or a double 577 NE."

A 577 NE (and a 500 NE) slightly off from the brain will still stun the animal
enough even if is not a killing shot. I don't think the same could be said
with a 45-70 at the fps you are talking about - or even a .458.

The effect of ANY calibre.500" and over is significant - at the correct velocities.


500 Nitro

Edited by 500 Nitro

45s_save_lives
Regarding your comment"
"I am not sure how famialiar you are with bison but they are much larger and
tougher than buffalo,, african or asian. They weigh a hair over a ton, have a thick winter coat of
fur and a thick layer of fat. In the case of bulls they are also very mean and cantankerous."

Everything you say (exept the thick winter fur) applies 150% to the Water Buffalo Bulls
we have here in Australia.

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DarylS
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #52895 - 21/03/06 10:17 AM

I am quite certain I woudn't hunt Africa with a Marlin Guide Gun. Is it powerful enough with the proper bullets and loads? I'd say yes - if the one shooting it was capable.
: If I could afford a trip to Africa, I'd most certainly not take a Marlin Guide Gun. My .458 Alaskan M70, yes, my .375/06IMP yes, but not a .45/70.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #52910 - 21/03/06 01:23 PM

The 45-70 ain't got the cool factor.

On the technical side, the 45-70 has nowhere near the "knock-out" factor that the real big bores have (see 500 Nitro's post).

Scott

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hoppdoc
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: ScottS]
      #52913 - 21/03/06 01:43 PM

I have used 400 gr handloaded 45-70's with a Marlin lever action on big black bear and walked away wanting more gun.
The soft nose bullet loafing around at 1800+ fps was concerning regarding penetration of shoulder bone and shouldermuscles requiring several shots.
Personally I would want to go with a Ruger #1 at 2000 fps with a 400 gr 45-70 premium bullet or similar set up in a bolt gun as a minimum before considering Africa with a 45-70.
And that kind of velocity for a 45-70 is loaded HOT!!

Just my 2cents----

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JPK
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: ScottS]
      #52914 - 21/03/06 01:49 PM

Without wading into this forthcoming cesspool too deeply I will just post a very concise quote form 500 Grains in another thread:

"The problem is that a 45-70 has anemic velocity when using a 500 grain bullet (1550 fps), which in turn leads to abysmal penetration. The 458 Win Mag with its original loads of 500 grain bullets going 1700 to 1900 fps would not reach an elephant's brain on a frontal shot. There is no reason to expect superior performance by dropping the velocity another 300 fps."

And I can't help myself; Loupo's writing is mostly fiction and imagination, Garrett test in newsprint - for a reason.

JPK

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bulldog563
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: JPK]
      #52927 - 21/03/06 04:46 PM

JPK,

Thats exactly the quote that comes to mind every time someone asks about the 45-70 for DG. 500grs put it better then I have heard otherwise.

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allenday
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: bulldog563]
      #52954 - 22/03/06 01:17 AM

500 grs. is right!

AD

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: allenday]
      #52956 - 22/03/06 01:20 AM

He usually is.

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BFaucett
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #52964 - 22/03/06 03:34 AM

Just one more thought: There's a difference between killing and stopping. I can kill an Elephant or Cape Buffalo with, for example, a 6.5x55 Swedish, a 7x57 Mauser or a .30-06 Springfield. That doesn't mean that these cartridges are considered adequate "stopping" cartridges for when things go wrong.

-Bob F.

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #52967 - 22/03/06 04:15 AM

45,

Regarding bison. I have shot a few of them and even watched a couple 45-70 (Sharps replica and a Marlin LA with the long barrel) both loaded with hard cast 400+ gr bullets. Neither of them get any respect from ol' bison bull unless of course your shooting him in the brains or spine (but hey, if that is where you are shooting them you don't need anything bigger than a monolithic solid in a 243 and 30-30s work splendidly and they are LA too).

With good body hits (lungs shoulder) the 45-70 took many shots, lets just say more than 5, and several minutes (like more than you got fingers and maybe toes) to kill ol' bison bull. A real deal elephant gun (500 Jeffery) shooting Soft Point Woodleighs kills then in about 2 seconds to 10 seconds with a double lung shot, no shit (and that is with only one shot taken). I agree that bison tend to be as tough or tougher (in my experience tougher) to bring down than the other bovines (but I haven't killed any Gaur).

For those that are all bent up on "charge stopping". Charges are only RELIABLY stopped ONE way, a CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM hit. In that case caliber isn't as important as projectile and shooter skill (put projectile in correct place, something that is often easier said than done during a real charge). One simply needs a bullet which will hold together and has sufficient momentum to penetrate the bone/structure opposing it. 45-70s with hot loaded hard cast bullets can easily reach the brains of all but perhaps elephants, IF the bullets don't explode on impact with said bones (skulls).

Like I said before the Marlin lever actions AIN'T got any "COOL FACTOR". Now a Winchester M1886 in 50-110 loaded up with 535 gr Woodleigh PPSP at 2100 fps, that is a horse of a different color.

Scott

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: BFaucett]
      #52980 - 22/03/06 07:02 AM

Bob, excellent post. I don't know if you've read any of Capstick's writings, but in one of them he tells of someone who, on a bet, killed an Elephant with a .22 long rifle. He stalked up on the Elephant, and when it moved its front leg forward, to take a step, put the .22 bullet through the thinner skin, and angled it forward, into the heart. I believe this guy pulled this stunt off twice. Hopefully, no one will now think that the .22 long rifle is adequate Elephant medicine just because someone has done it.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (22/03/06 07:05 AM)

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canguk
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: 45s_save_lives]
      #52987 - 22/03/06 08:08 AM

45s: It seems as though your question went astray, hijacked for a better term.
I was always under the impression that DG stood for all Dangerous Game not elephant alone. That said the 45-70 is more than adaquate to hunt lion,leopard,buffalo and croc. I wouldn't use it for elephant or hippo (on land vs popping him in the brain as he lies in the water) bur short of that the good old 45-70 will do it's job with proper bullets.
One item you will rarely here the canon crowd admit to is their 500+ WUMP UM THUMPER will not stop a full blown charge either from a buff unless a CNS hit is scored .
If the 45-70 loaded with 54.0 gr IMR3031 and a good stiff jacketed bullet designed for one of the 458 Mags @350 gr is not a buffalo killer than I say neither is the 450/400, 404 Jeffery, 450#2,etc. all intended to push a 400 gr bullet @2100FPS with 4K# of energy ( satistics that are easily reached in a MODERN LA such as Marlin's GG). With today's reloading componets and modern actions such as Marlin's 1895 which can withstand 50000# pressure and have been tested to 60000# there is simply no reason other than nostalgia to not embrace a Marlin made 45-70 when hunting most DG.

OK the lid is off the cesspool

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8x56mn
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #52988 - 22/03/06 08:15 AM

I remember reading as a kid a story in F&S or Outdoor Life, about a hunter who was on Safari and spent the night atop a raised platform out on the veld. During the night he was awakened by an elephant rubbing against one of the platform poles. He had a 22 rifle along with him, I suppose form shooting birds and he fired a rounddown through the thatched floor of the platform hoping to scare away the beast. As soon as he did this it got quite and he soon fell back to sleep. When he awoke in the morning he was astounded to find a dead elephant laying under his platform. Supposedly the bullet went through the top of his head hitting the brain.

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BFaucett
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #52991 - 22/03/06 08:21 AM

Mike,

Well, I'm still waiting for one of our forum members, that's a .45-70 proponent, to take a .45-70 lever action rifle to Africa and hunt elephant, hippo, and/or cape buffalo with it. Then come back and post a hunting report here and tell us how well it worked and share their photographs with us.

-Bob F.

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BFaucett
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: canguk]
      #52995 - 22/03/06 08:30 AM

Stopping Power Revisited
by Ganyana
http://www.african-hunter.com/stopping_power.htm

"In all the sitreps I have been able to look up where a hunter has been surprised by an elephant in thick bush, the 11 cases where the hunter has been armed with a .375 he has been either injured or killed. As the rifles become more powerful, the odds improve remarkably. A .470 (or .465, 476 etc.) gives the hunter better than 50/50 odds of escaping unscathed (eight records: one killed, two injured). With buffalo it’s a similar story. A .375 solid on a frontal chest shot will seldom stop a charge dead. Both barrels from a .500 are virtually guaranteed to."

"This then is the down side in the argument for smaller calibres; when things go wrong and you get charged, you always wish that you had a rifle at least twice as powerful as the one you are holding. The debate then for carrying a cannon is one of ethics and safety and so we come back to the argument for having a rifle that possesses some real stopping power."

"Most PH’s I’ve spoken to would rather see a client pulling an old .375 out of his gun bag than any new .450 magnum any day. In fact, most PH’s would rather have the client use a rifle smaller than the legal minimum (9.3 x 62 in Zimbabwe) if that is all he can shoot straight with. A 220 grain solid from a 30-06 through an elephant’s brain or a buffalo’s shoulder is a thousand times more lethal than a 900 grain bullet from a .600 express that misses the brain or hits the buff in the guts. There is no substitute for shot placement!"

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DarylS
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: canguk]
      #53005 - 22/03/06 10:09 AM

I-too often think of the other greats, often spoken of as adequate for the hunter. I am referring to the .375 H&H and the 450/400.
: Realistically, the .45/70 is capable, if loaded to match either of these rounds, in tissue damage and penetration.
: This is why i said it was definitely adequate. Would I chose it, no, but if the 450/400 is adequate, then so is the .45/70, if laoded to the same power levels with bullets that will penetrate.
: Is it adequate with 400 gr. Speers, NO. That wasn't the original question.
: Is the heavy lead bullet loafing along at 1,600fps adequate, I don't honestly know. I know that Elmer Keith said I would have no trouble with that same weight hardened bullet at 1,900fps to 2,000fps from my bolt .458 2".
: I suspect it would work OK at the reduced velocity, but be aware, lower 'power' due to less velocity in that amount is a noticable result, and killing is generally slower, but do the job, it will. Some areas might not allow this necessary 'time' factor, though, due to presence of preditors.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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canguk
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: BFaucett]
      #53007 - 22/03/06 10:24 AM

Bob I'm still waiting for some of the forum members that have never killed an elephant OR buffalo with any type of weapon to stop giving advice they've only read about.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: canguk]
      #53013 - 22/03/06 10:57 AM

canguk, how exactly does one wait for something to not happen?

I must take exception to your apparent belief that unless someone has done something they are not qualified to express an opinion on it. I've read an awful lot about hunting over the years, and because of that, I feel that I'm entitled to have opinions. I've only read about the 30-60-90 day and longer safaries that took place in the golden age of African Hunting, but I can certainly comment on it. Some things are just common sense, or at least one would think so. I don't have to try taking out a Cape Buffalo with a club, to know that I'm woefully under armed.Most of us read to learn and be entertained. Whether or not one chooses to believe what they read is strictly a personal choice.

One of the purposes of this web site, as well as many others is to give its members the opportunity to share what they've learned over the years: be it as a result of personal experiences, or what they've picked up as a result of other members sharing information with them. Just because someone hasn't done something themself, in no way automatically disqualifies their opinion.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'm more than just a little curious about what your personal experience is using the 45-70 on dangerous game. If you've got it, great, but if not, then using your own statements, you're not qualified to comment on its effectiveness, or lack of same. Looking forward to seeing some of your photos of your DG kills with the 45-70.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (22/03/06 11:01 AM)

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canguk
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #53019 - 22/03/06 11:54 AM

mike you may take all the exception you wish to but please do it in a manner that comes off as a little less sounding like "which school boy can pee the fartherest". Reserve that type of posting for AR!
To continue your argument wouldn't you need to prove that the 45-70 is not capable of pierceing the brain of a sleeping croc,hippo?
The fact is 45s asked a question about DG/ Marlin 45-70. Not about what caliber best to hunt elephants with. DG includes lion, leopard, croc, buffalo,etc as well as elephant. A Marlin 1895 with the proper bullets will kill all of them neatly IMHO with the exception of an elephant.


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JPK
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #53021 - 22/03/06 11:55 AM

Like many of the 45/70 aficianados canquk makes the mistake of misapplying energy numbers. It is penetration that kills the big DG. The comparison between the 450/400 and the 45/70 falls apart when you look at the sectional density of the bullets cited by canquk. For the 450/400 the sd is .338, the 350 grain 45/70 slug goes only .238 a 400 grainer only .272 Compare this with a sectional density of the 450 grain .458" bullet at .301, iirc, the 480 grainers at .327 and the 500 grainers at .341 The last three are typically ffired at velocity of 2000 to 2300, far, far beyond what any 45/70 can turn up.

Energy numbers only become relevant in the discussion of energy available for the purpose of penetration. This is dependant on the sectional density of the bullet.

Every Brit DG round features a bullet of at least .300 sectional density, save one and it isn't too far off and wasn't too popular either. Velocities ran from the 2025fps range to 2175 for the NE 400/450/465/470/476 rounds and 2400 or so for the 375H&H. Far greater sectional density and far greater velocity for that sectional density. Proven for 108 years since the advent of the 450NE.

In that same period the 45/70 has proven itself a great short range deer rifle, good short range black bear rifle and better than any pistol or revolver for the big bears.

It was and is on par with the 450 Black Powder Express rifles and these were unsuccessful as DG rounds.

BTW, in his article Ganyana mentioned the 220 grain 30-06. Why? Sectional density of .331 and velocity of 2450. Excellent pentration due to excellent energy as applied to the high sectional density bullet.

Can you kill a buff with a 45/70, yes you can. Will it be a reliable round to hunt with - Well the Brits, the guys with the African experience, didn't think so since even before the advent of Nitro powder they veiwed thier 450 BPE rifles as good plains game rifles and the eight bore rifle as the beginning of DG rounds.

No amount of wishful thinking makes the 45/70 a DG round, it is just a stunt hunt round. And it doesn't see much use even for that.

JPK

Editted to note that it is widely known that the lion and leopard are very susceptible to shock from high velocity rounds, at least for the first shot. I recall various thoughts on what is high enough velocity and I believe that the lower end was thought to be 2300 plus. Even the 458wm, a round that far, far exceeds the 45/70 in any and every measurable way doesn't make a good cat cartridge.

Edited by JPK (22/03/06 12:04 PM)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: canguk]
      #53026 - 22/03/06 12:28 PM

canguk, I'm simply replying to your statements that basicly hold to the premise that unless someone has done something personally, they have no business stating their opinion. On that, my friend, you are just plain wrong. IMHO

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (22/03/06 02:55 PM)

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bulldog563
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #53044 - 22/03/06 02:26 PM

Other then that, he is just plain wrong.

The Garrett ammo is, according to the maker, @1530fps at the muzzle. I would tend to doubt that you could actually get the measily 1530 out of your average LA anyway but we will take the manufacturers word just for comparison. What does that make at 100yards.... roughly 1320fps. Maybe just over 1400fs at 50yards. You are kidding yourself if you think that this round is just as capable as the proven DG rounds that are going 50% faster.

You keep mentioning that besides elephant it would be very capable on DG. Yeah right, on anything other then a brain shot on any DG I think it (with the exception of Leopard) would be seriously lacking in penetration. I have seen a black bear that had been shot by a 45-70 in the shoulder. The bullet didn't even make it past the shoulder and into the vitals. I would estimate maybe 5-6" of penetration. It definitely would have gotten away wounded if the guys hunting partner hadn't had a 30-06 to tag the bear with and bring it down. You are telling me that it will reach the vitals of a full grown buffalo. Highly doubtful.



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bulldog563
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: canguk]
      #53045 - 22/03/06 02:35 PM

You also said;

" To continue your argument wouldn't you need to prove that the 45-70 is not capable of pierceing the brain of a sleeping croc,hippo?"

Is that how you usually hunt, plugging animals in their sleep? Also wouldn't it be you that has to prove that it can? There are mountains of evidence that prove the standard DG cartridges as being very effective on all DG but basically non that proves the 45-70 even adequate.

I am done feeding the troll for the moment and will no longer participate in this thread. Your ideas are completely asinine and your logic is faulty. Personally I think that you are Cats.

But please by all means, post some pictures of yourself hunting DG with your 45-70. On second thought, post pictures of yourself hunting at all. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you ever seen any of the DG of Africa on their own turf. I assure you they are much different in real life then in books.

Where do you currently live, couldn't be Pennsylvania could it?



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Edited by bulldog563 (22/03/06 02:36 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: 45-70 LA on DG [Re: bulldog563]
      #53061 - 22/03/06 07:31 PM


45s saves live,

I told you about starting WW III.

I just read your Bio and I would tend to agree with Bulldog

500 Nitro

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