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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buffalo
      #52270 - 13/03/06 12:33 PM

Planning my first hunt for Cape Buffalo, and I was curious as to how large the vital area is on them, both from a broadside perspective, and also when facing you straight on. The reason I'm curious is because a lot of us, myself included, get hung up on how small a group their rifle will shoot, and if it doesn't shoot 1 inch groups, feel it can't be relied upon to get the job done. Will a rifle that shoots 3, 4, or even 5 inch groups get the job done on Buffalo?

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BFaucett
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Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 451
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #52276 - 13/03/06 01:20 PM







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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: BFaucett]
      #52282 - 13/03/06 02:02 PM

Superb demonstration!!

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: hoppdoc]
      #52283 - 13/03/06 02:24 PM

Those photos are right out of "The Perfect Shot" and anyone contemplating a buff hunt should get a copy. Good reading on a variety of topics including calibre selection, game habitat...

JPK

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: JPK]
      #52314 - 13/03/06 07:53 PM

A side on shot will give you a target the size of a Bucket lid.
But after running and the effect of excitement, you want to minimize any reason to mess the shot up.
Met many PH's that recomend against shooting an animal in the front on position such as in picture no2, but that will be your call.
ozhunter

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3598
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: ozhunter]
      #52319 - 13/03/06 10:27 PM

Speaking again from Asiatic buffalo experience, the front-on shot is a ripper if you forget about the heart and shoot high up under the chin. The bullet will smash the vertebrae at the base of the neck, where the spine dips down between the shoulder-blades, and dump him on the spot. I suspect this would be especially important with Cape Buff due to their propensity to charge when wounded, as the animal is already facing you and a fatally heart-shot bull can still run you over: they often bolt flat-out when hit in the pump.

If you look at the illustrations provided by Bob you will see that the front-on spine-shot offers quite a large target, about the same size as the heart anyway. Also, they often lift their chin and point their nose out trying to get your wind, which makes the shot even easier. I have used this shot a number of times on big bull water-buff with Woodleigh softs and it is spectacular, to say the least! Can't imagine why a PH would discourage it.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: Marrakai]
      #52324 - 13/03/06 11:56 PM

In reply to:

Can't imagine why a PH would discourage it.



Marrakai,
I can.

For experienced hunters that shot is a beauty for sure and as you say will put a bull down on the spot.
Some hunting clients are a different story though.
Many will shoot high both with open sights and with scoped rifles and when this happens that bull gets it in the nose or jaw with that particular shot, then the sh#t hits the fan.

For those who can put the bullet where it is supposed to go I agree that it is the best killing front on shot and indeed way better than heart, or heart upper blood vessels.

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4seventy
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Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: 4seventy]
      #52333 - 14/03/06 01:04 AM

Just to add a little to the fact that some shooters hit too high, I've had quite a few instances over the years where client hunters have shot straight into the mouth of boar pigs when making a frontal shot.
The result being that the tusks are usually completely stuffed.
Another one is where the hunter is trying for a brain shot, the bullet goes high and blows a hunk of bristles and skin and bone off the top of a boars head.
Things often get exciting shortly after one of those shots!

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: 4seventy]
      #52335 - 14/03/06 01:14 AM

I believe the frontal shot is often discouraged by African PH's because of some past poor experiences with soft point bullets at this angle.

I was told that the front skin is especially thick and tough, perhaps from years of scarring from thorns. In addition, imperfect shot placement by excited clients can have the bullet striking too far right or left and "sliding" along between the ribs between leg or shoulder and the ribs. At least this is what I've been told and read. This shot is not recomended for a soft from a 375H&H for sure and is discouraged for larger softs as well in Robertson's book for example. The outfit I hunted with in Oct, headed by Roger Whittall, a retired PH about sixty five years old (so lots of experience with less than premium softs) really encourages the use of solids for any shot on buff due to past problems with softs.

I took a frontal shot at the top of the heart on a buff cow at 25yds. I used a .458", 500 grain Woodleigh solid. At the shot the herd thundered off to the right and the buff turned 90* and bolted to join the herd, my second barrel, another solid, in the shoulder brought it down. When we approached she was dead but there was still a .458" stream of blood flowing from the entrance hole. I would not hesitate taking a frontal shot in the future and given the chance I think I'd like to try the front spinal shot.

JPK

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: 4seventy]
      #52336 - 14/03/06 01:17 AM

4seventy :
Yeah, point taken. The good thing about the frontal spine-shot though is that it is instantaneously obvious if the client stuffs it up, so the guide can put in a shot 'on the turn' if necessary, or a proper frontal shot if he comes!

A client that can't shoot well is going to be a liability at any angle!


JPK:
With premium soft-points like the Woodleigh bonded-core bullet, a metre of penetration is a given at NE velocities so there is no chance of the bullet not making it in to the spine from the front. Your point about "less than premium" softs is well taken, though. A good example would be the early Winchester .458 soft-points. Not a confidence-builder! There's simply no excuse for shooting cheap bullets at dangerous game these days.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
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Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: Marrakai]
      #52337 - 14/03/06 01:27 AM

In reply to:

A client that can't shoot well is going to be a liability at any angle!



Very true.
And a poorly placed shot is not always bad news as it gives the ph or guide a chance to warm the barrels of HIS gun for a change.

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jorge
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Reged: 13/07/05
Posts: 88
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: 4seventy]
      #52366 - 14/03/06 07:31 AM

It's a big target, but I like to "aim samll and miss small." I just pick a spot on his shoulder as an aimpoint and squeeze. Worked for me. jorge

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
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Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: jorge]
      #52374 - 14/03/06 08:42 AM

Jorge, I saw your article in this months Safari Magazine...well done!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: jorge]
      #52378 - 14/03/06 09:19 AM


Jorge

I do the same thing - aim at a chosen point on the shoulder
and it has always worked for me.

500 Nitro

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buf [Re: Marrakai]
      #52383 - 14/03/06 10:19 AM

I assume that when aiming the frotal spinal shot You specifically aim for the exact MIDDLE to the junction line joining the lower third of the spinal column shown on the frontal diagram? Or should it be a high spinal shot under the jaw?

Any bullet that hits the middle to lower third will also be on line to penetrate the spine AGAIN if exiting the posterior cervical vertebrae and be on line to get to the thoracic cavity and the structures within.

A big Double shooting quality softpoints seems perfect for a frontal shooting task with the chance of massive trauma/hydrostatic energy transmitted by the large bullet.

Which spinal location suggested is preferred? Both or is one better or more predictable?.

Thanks for the info--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (14/03/06 10:55 AM)

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buffalo [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #52398 - 14/03/06 12:44 PM

Just aim half way up right behind the front leg on a broadside shot. It will hit the lungs. The buff may run a few yards and then usually fall over. The lungs are bigger than Robertson shows them.

'Frontal shots are okay but many a client screws it up by not being dead center. Shooting them right where the neck hits the chest will do it.

Many PH's cling to the solid bullet theory, but it is bogus. No need to use solids on buff. I think they just goad the client into solids so they can get in some target practice on wounded buff.

Accuracy? Just don't shoot at distances that you can't hit them!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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4seventy
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Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buffalo [Re: Will]
      #52402 - 14/03/06 01:09 PM

Will,
Sure sounds like a nice place that ideal world that you seem to be living in!

Softpoint bullets are the best choice for quick kills when the animal is positioned for easy placement straight into the vitals.
Perhaps in an ideal world this will always happen but in the real hunting world things can sometimes work a bit different.

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Will
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Loc: Kansas
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buffalo [Re: 4seventy]
      #52405 - 14/03/06 01:25 PM

Buff get hopelessly wounded by guys screwing up the shot (been there!) not because of softs instead of solids.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: How large is the heart/lung area of a Cape Buffalo [Re: Will]
      #52424 - 14/03/06 08:39 PM

I would guess that 90% of shots at cape Buffalo (not sure about water Buffalo) would be around eighty meters give or take ten meters, and knowing that many hunters can not shoot as well as they should, plus hunting conditions at the time, I would think it is a risky shot.
Last year we watched an upset hunter and PH return to camp for three nights after tracking a wounded limping Buff that was hit with a Tungsen tipped 416 solid in the chest front on.
On first hearing of it my PH knew exactly what had happened and said this is not uncommon with such a shot.
PS; the hunter never recovered his Buff and was shooting with open sights.
ozhunter

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