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BlainSmipy
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Loc: Washington, USA

Hollis 500/450
#51513 - 05/03/06 11:22 AM

Recommended loads for this?

BS

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banzaibird
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51525 - 05/03/06 12:21 PM

Details man, we need details. Ohh and pics.

So what is the donor gun? Did you build a monoblock or cut and sleeve the old barrels? Anything to hide the joint where monoblock/barrel stubs meet the barrel? What was the original proof? What did you use for a proofing load? Did you have any change in tolorences after the proofing load? Is it already regulated or are you still building loads for pressure? What load do you want to use?

These are just a few questions. i could ask more.

BB

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BlainSmipy
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#51675 - 07/03/06 05:22 AM

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banzaibird
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51676 - 07/03/06 05:28 AM

Sounds like a great start to a test that I for one am very interested in hearing of the ruslts. Good or bad. What did you use as the donor action? Barrels monoblocked or sleeved?

BB

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DarylS
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51678 - 07/03/06 06:00 AM

Way to go - sounds great so far.
: Important to casting, is the alloy, and final size of the bullet. You will find a difference in shooting with different lubes.
: Lube that worked for me with smokeless loads, are SPG, 60/40 mix of Beeswax/Vaseline. I had less than stellar results with the alox lubes, even with smokless loads. Anther lube that shows promise is Lyman Moly lube in the stick form for lube-sizers, but testing on that one is on-going at this time. I even tested some sprayed with Hoppe's moly lube and they shot without leading with reasonable accuracy.
: Bullets, I've found, should be .002" LARGER than the groove diameter. .001" is OK, but groove size will normally lead the bore and shoot poorly. At 1,900 to 2,100fps, straight WW alloy shot well for me, but WW are a bit harder up here than the US equivalent.
; Questions?
1/. did the bullets lead the bore?
2/. what diameter are they ready to load?
3/. what is the groove diameter of the barrel?
3/. what is the rate of twist?
4/. are your groupings lefts and rights including any divergence or crossing of the barrels.
: Do keep up posted - a most interesting rifle, indeed. Great performance so far. The accuracy will come with bullet and load developement, I am certain.
: BTW- IMR 3031 is a very accurate powder for the big cases. A filler may not be necessary with it. As well, 4895 is another good performer, being just a shade hotter than Varget. As well, it may not need the filler. I would be using magnum primers. All straight cases seem to prefer them. With BP loads, the FED215 is THE primer to use. Personally, I'd use them for all loads.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (07/03/06 06:03 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: banzaibird]
#51679 - 07/03/06 06:11 AM

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banzaibird
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51683 - 07/03/06 06:40 AM

I'm not surprised at the Stoeger strength. I use a Condor Supreme as my beater gun. It is the gun I generally take on the boat duck hunting into the muddy field goose hunting etc. I can't complain and like you got my o/u for about $300.

The project sounds good so far. As I said I'm interested to hear how it does over the long haul. I know what you mean with a lot of other things than merely building a set of barrels. My first homemade DR was a 38-55 using heavy barrels. In fact the gun has all the grace of a demolition derby. I beleive the gun weighs around 12 pounds. With BP and cast bullets it has virtually no recoil though.

Anyway I look forward to hearing how the project is working out.

Are you planning on marketing the guns to the public?

BB

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BlainSmipy
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#51685 - 07/03/06 06:50 AM

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doublegunfan
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51688 - 07/03/06 07:54 AM

Congratulations!

I have an Uplander, which I planned to use as a basis for a conversion at first, but latter, I found a good deal on a Beretta and used it instead. I also prefer the Beretta because of the third fastener.

Let us know the next steps.

Fred

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BlainSmipy
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#51694 - 07/03/06 10:22 AM

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doublegunfan
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51750 - 08/03/06 05:23 AM

So, I understood it well: you are really using a Brazilian action for your Double Rifle!!
Go get some pictures of it, right now!!!

Fred

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banzaibird
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: doublegunfan]
#51774 - 08/03/06 08:49 AM

Hey Fred how are the Armentino's viewed down there? Here' they are considered about the same as the Baikal's but i think they are a bit nicer in both appearence and finsh. Though still not any where near refined.

BB

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BlainSmipy
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Hollis 500/450 [Re: doublegunfan]
#51778 - 08/03/06 10:04 AM

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BlainSmipy
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#51781 - 08/03/06 11:10 AM

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doublegunfan
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: banzaibird]
#51825 - 09/03/06 06:41 AM

BB,

Our shooters like them, mostly because maintenance, if needed, is right around the corner. I don't have any complains of my two Boitos, a SxS and an O/U. Mostly, it is viewed as an entry level shotgun that you will sell latter when you find a Beretta or any other Italian gun. But E. R. Amantino is trying hard to improve their products, and new Boitos are certainly way better than older ones.

When I first bought my SxS, the first idea was to use it for slugs only, so I added very simple rifle sights to it and the barrel was cut down to 24", which eliminated the chokes (it was IM/F). It is a beater, as some say, and I think it is a perfect gun for deer/boars.

Now if Boito is a good action for a Double Rifle is another thing . The one feature I don't like in it for this purpose is the lack of a third locking, like a Greener cross bolt. But, when you see the results of Colorado's project gun, I am forced to reconsider that. It is obvious that his gun passed proof and it will give him good service for years. Maybe I am being just a little bit too conservative. The price and ready availability of new actions is a big plus for Boito. Besides, nobody will tell you: "what have you done? this is a classic gun and you destroyed it!!"

I will try to get some pictures of my own Boito for you guys to see.

Fred

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DarylS
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#51827 - 09/03/06 06:59 AM

I just love doubles with hammers.
TKS!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: doublegunfan]
#51838 - 09/03/06 08:20 AM

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BlainSmipy
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#52719 - 18/03/06 04:02 PM

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AkMike
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Re: 200+ Hot loads fired thus far [Re: BlainSmipy]
#52720 - 18/03/06 04:14 PM

This is where it should get interesting.

Get it dialed in!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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577500WR
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Re: 200+ Hot loads fired thus far [Re: AkMike]
#52768 - 19/03/06 12:20 PM

This is where it gets interesting! For moose and bear this is looking like a great thing CO. I want to hunt with a double rifle but do not want to worry about it. I want something to use that is effective but not an investment to put at risk.

Form follows function in my book and especially up here where we hope and can be 50 miles from a road without a gunsmith in sight.

Keep on measuring and keep on shooting CO. Above all, keep us posted.

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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AkMike
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Re: 200+ Hot loads fired thus far [Re: 577500WR]
#52769 - 19/03/06 12:32 PM

It's about time you came outt'a the closet 577500WR!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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577500WR
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Re: 200+ Hot loads fired thus far [Re: AkMike]
#52772 - 19/03/06 02:09 PM

Thanks Mike,

Just looked out the window and spotted about 15 ravens cavorting on the hillside before going to roost. Like them, I have been lurking about too long without being seen and posting.

I am truly excited about the initiative some of the members here have...building up their own doubles! Hats off to each of you.

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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kweber
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Re: 200+ Hot loads fired thus far [Re: BlainSmipy]
#52878 - 21/03/06 05:27 AM

Colorado, would a .405 win. be feasable on a 20 ga. Stoeger action? or possibly 45-90, 9.3 x74r? very intrested in your venture, please keep postings current. thanx, Kurt.

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BlainSmipy
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405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: kweber]
#52890 - 21/03/06 08:48 AM

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kweber
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: BlainSmipy]
#52901 - 21/03/06 10:46 AM

Thank you for the reply. I did not know Stoeger have a true 16 ga. action. also what about .30-30, 32 win and 35 rem? would the 20 ga. hold up? I'm not a gunsmith, just instrested in the project you have undertaken. Kurt.

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oupa
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Reged: 01/03/06
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: kweber]
#52908 - 21/03/06 12:26 PM

I happened to be present during the initial (and final) test firing of a poorly thought out conversion of a 20ga. Stevens to 32Win Spec. Now here is a good place to state that STEVENS / SAVAGE guns are not suitable for ANYTHING other than the original chambering! Their single bolting system is argubly the weakest of any modern era doubles. That said, the gun wasn't put together too bad and the head space was (alledgedly) within spec. The one thing over looked was the non-bushed strikers! The large firing pins apearently projected too far and the first shot resulted in the right striker being blown out. Not to be defeated so easily - not to mention nothing left to lose - the string for "remote firing" was transfered to the rear trigger... this time the stock was blown completely off!!!!!!!! What's more, this was factory ammo not "proof loads!" JUST DON'T DO IT!

Now, as for the twenty bore's suitability, even this poor example of an action held tight. Additionally, twenties actually have higher chamber pressure than larger bores. There is the issue of wall thickness as well as the important factor of weight in a heavy recoiling rifle, but strength? I'm not convenced the twenty would be over burdened in reguard to low pressure rifle rounds... I wouldn't use one, but not because of strength.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: oupa]
#52923 - 21/03/06 03:58 PM

Good point about the strikers, high pressure cartridges are far more prone to have primer failure's as well. Again I would not build around a high pressure cartridge without fully bushed firing pins. Keep the pressure around 10 tons or less with Federal 215 primers and you should have no issues.

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doublegunfan
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: oupa]
#52970 - 22/03/06 05:05 AM

I had a similar problem with my Beretta. The strikers were too long, and they caused a severe punch to the primers, but did not pierce them. I reduced the length without changing the diameter. I didn't have any issues after that.

Someone also mentioned that the mainsprings might be a little too stiff and that they should be reworked to reduce the possibility of damage to the primers. But I did not try this route.

Now, I don't think this is a particular problem with the 20ga frames of certain guns, but something that can happen to any frame size, as it has to do with the strikers, not frame size.

Having used factory loads for your test, I would rate the problem you experienced as a "design issue", that could be avoided by correctly measuring the original strikers. If longer than 1,5mm (projecting out of the face of the action), the strikers may require some filling.

More than that, once the first barrel presented a serious problem, the test should have been aborted immediately. Maybe the gun could have been fixed at that point, before further damage.

Fred

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rigbymauser
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#53130 - 23/03/06 08:10 AM

Bullet: 515 grain cast lubed.

45 grains Varget with filler .... way high .... 12"..1150FPS

50 grains Varget with filler ..... high .... 8-9".. 1250FPS

55 grains Varget with filler ..... high .... 8" .. 1380FPS

Tomorrow I'll go with the full 72 grains varget Nitro for black load stepping up 5 grains at a time. Gun feels good! Points quick, sights are excellent, no extraction problems thus far.

Gun is a engineering test mule, we're measuring all pieces of the action to determine what is failing and how to make it last longer. We're should know almost to the shot how many rounds the action can take before coming off face and shooting loose. We'll make changes to it and try again.

Colorado

Normally one will see the bullet are printing higher than POA when shooting with a higher velocity bullet than the sights regulated for.....but here in this case the LOWER velocity makes the bullet print HIGHER???? Just wondering????

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BlainSmipy
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: rigbymauser]
#53138 - 23/03/06 09:33 AM

Only thing I can think of is that the bullets stay in the barrel longer, and thus you are recoiling up and away longer. This causes the muzzels to rise more and change POI.

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doublegunfan
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#53140 - 23/03/06 10:35 AM

I think you got it, CO!

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rigbymauser
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: doublegunfan]
#53170 - 23/03/06 04:20 PM

Thanks Colorado!

I had my thoughts directed that way aswell....the same thing often happens in revolvers.

sincerlyl

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oupa
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
#53772 - 01/04/06 08:20 AM

Colorado, I must ask... if this rifle is a test platform for possible future commercial builds, why did you choose such an obsolete cartridge? Just curious.

If this has been answered in a previous post please excuse my asking. I have not read the whole two pages.

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DarylS
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: rigbymauser]
#53810 - 02/04/06 02:10 AM

Yes- Co's got it. Barrel time is the key to lower printing with higher velocities. The same thing happens with handguns chambered with handgun ctgs. Higher velocity means lower shooting.
: My .45 Colt m94 Trapper was probably the epitome of that phenominum due to the jumping in recoil of such a rifle. Once sighted for cast 300gr. HP's at 1,740fps, factory .45 Colts running 1,000fps wouldn't even hit the target at 50 yards, let alone 100yds- wayyyyyyyyyyy over.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: oupa]
#53826 - 02/04/06 04:04 AM

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Bronco
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: BlainSmipy]
#53830 - 02/04/06 05:01 AM

Colorado, I have a Husky M102 hammergun in 16ga that would make a wonderful 45-90 or 110. The action has a Greener crossbolt and is esentially the same action (M103) that Husqvarna used to make the 9.3x74 hammer double rifle. This specimen is in excellent condition. My gunsmith is Danny Pedersen, a barrel maker in Prescott, AZ. He is an excellent machinist/rifle maker, but says he is not a shotgun guy. Where do I start? Thanks, Bob

Edited by Bronco (02/04/06 05:03 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: Bronco]
#53832 - 02/04/06 05:53 AM

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Bronco
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: BlainSmipy]
#53873 - 02/04/06 12:08 PM

Return to your PM. Bob

Edited by Bronco (02/04/06 12:30 PM)

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: kweber]
#54120 - 05/04/06 07:00 AM

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54285 - 06/04/06 05:49 PM

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54289 - 06/04/06 08:29 PM

Colorado,

Please let me know how that action holds up for you. As i said in the other thread when I told you of the action. It seemed fine but we only had about 150 smokeless loads through it. Then it was finish regulated for BP. In total there is well over 500 rounds through the one we built in 50-140. Still tight.

Bill

P.S.- If you do some stoning work on the sidelocks they will run smooth as you could ever want.

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: banzaibird]
#54295 - 07/04/06 12:06 AM

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AkMike
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54304 - 07/04/06 01:35 AM

Is the other one in 16ga with 24" tubes?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54306 - 07/04/06 01:42 AM

The original barrels are 20" that the owner wanted to keep. So we made a new monoblock. The new 50-140 barrels ar 28" with express sights. 1 standing 2 leaves. There is a short quarter rib which the sight is dovetailed into. Then hollow rib from there to front sight. I was afraid of balance because of the 28" barrels. However I profiled the barrels using some of the info gained here and they are .110 wall thickness from about 14" out to the full 28" Then with the addition of pad the rifle balances pretty well.

The one we used had just a little roughness in the sears. We stoned them a bit and rehardened the surface. Smooth now, very smooth. The only thing I don't care for is that the hammers seemed to be angled out just a little bit. I think that could probably be worked out with out much issue though. Since the guy who was footing the bill didn't mind we didn't play with that at all.

I have one sitting under my bench for a furture build but I found a nice older hammer gun to use for a build first.

I'd be interested in hearing how your build progresses.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: AkMike]
#54308 - 07/04/06 02:08 AM

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tinker
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54321 - 07/04/06 04:21 AM

I'm really enjoying the enthusiasm you guys are taking to the build of these rifles.
Keep it up and have fun with it!

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54337 - 07/04/06 09:23 AM

Colorado,

Did you just full length sleeve the existing barrels? Or did you cut them and use the existing monoblock?

I never did see any of the 24" guns. The local shop is big on cowboy shooting so they have a couple of these KBI's on the shelf at all times. I do quite a bit of business there so got an especially good deal on the one I have. I bought it for less than $350. I was originally thinking of building the 577 2 3/4 on it but then found another action I might use instead.

Tinker this stuff is fun. Don't you have a nice back action lock action sitting around??? Well start building and join the fun.

Bill

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tinker
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
#54339 - 07/04/06 09:44 AM

Bill-

I do indeed have a very nice jones/back action... rear end of a C&H 8b SxS, also an absolutely miniature toplever back action SxS that'll end up as a 25-25 stevens mini express later on.
I also have the metalworking skills to pull a project like this off very nicely, all of it in-house save for boring and rifling my own barrels, and I could set up for that too with the equipment I have here if it really came down to a need-to-do basis.

Much more important lately though is my nine month old daughter and the pursuit for a bit of a solid career lateral -- both of which have cut deeply into my F.O.T. in the machine shop.

Stay tuned though, my wheels are turning and there's blue smoke in the future of my benchmade projects.

For now it's all I can do to sneak out back and turn a few pinfire rifle cases out or even do a bit of reloading for my new .458

All is just as it should be and I'm enjoying the ride as it goes.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: tinker]
#54345 - 07/04/06 10:22 AM

Tinker,

I look forward to the pics when you finally do get to building it. It sounds like you have a great shop. I hope to get there someday but currently I'm a parasite of a fellow I've corrupted into building his own DR's as well

. He is a retired tool and die guy who has a full shop because he does small production runs of stuff for extra money. I'm still learning every time I use the mill or lathe it seems. I'm fortunate that I have a built in teacher and a shop I can use anytime. I must be learning something as I can make a monoblock from a chunk of 4140 in about 3-4 hours by myself. That might not be impressive to the machinests here but that is a huge jump from where I started.

I remembered the Coggie pics. Any plans for that yet?

The little toplever sounds cool. How did you decide on 25-25 stevens? You turning your own cases from solid bar? You going smokeless or BP? A few years ago I had built a 25 hornet on small stevens frame single shot (marksman). It worked well enough but I had limited use for it and soon parted ways with the little rifle. I still have a marksman in .22 long.

Bill

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Making chips [Re: banzaibird]
#54349 - 07/04/06 12:00 PM

Three to four hours from billet to monoblock is pretty good time there.
When it comes to machining parts, once you know where you need go go from barstock to product getting the second, third, fourth... part done is quicker each time -- even if they're simply similar but unique parts. Speeds, feeds, cutter geometry, tooling setup, cutter path -- it all comes together a little better each time.

If the aptitude is there, a man can go from operator to produciton machinist pretty quickly if the tools and coaching is there to facilitate the development of a steep learning curve.

The Stevens idea came more than anything from the charming looks of the cartridge. I'll be going smokeless with that one for sure, extraction will be much less of an issue with clean-burning modern powders. I have a little pile here of sixty pieces of Bertram virgin brass in that caliber, I won't likely need to turn any brass for the thing in this coming decade.

The eight bore C&H on the other hand almost certianly will be a blackpowder chugging roundball machine.
I'll have the barrels made of good modern barrel steel so I'll also be able to cook up smokeless loads for it without worry, but I want that thing to be a charcoal burner.

Really, I'd also like to find somewhere a pair of damascus eight bore barrels for it and saddle them on a set of shoe lumps juuuust to have an eight bore damascus side by side shotgun with a pair of rifle tubes to go with it. I know 8b shotgun totally impractical, but I just don't care. I'll most likely go with a smaller guage than eight for the rifle tubes too, likely twelve or fourteen.

I'm constantly (although waaaay in the back of the agenda) peeking around for a pair of damascus eight bore tubes offa' *any* side by side shotgun.
If you find a pair of them let me know.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: banzaibird]
#54356 - 07/04/06 01:15 PM

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54368 - 07/04/06 11:02 PM

Colorado,

I didn't realize that you were relining shotgun barrels. Are you using an eccentric bushing at the end that you turn for regulation? Do you do any boring work on the exisisting chamber barel before relining? Are you affixing the liner into the chamber area only? Where have been the balance points on the ones you've built so far?

Please don't take any of these questions as personal attacks on how your doing things. I just haven't seen anyone do this personally and was interested in the process you are using to get the results. All of the barrels I've built so far have been scratch built or using an existing monoblock from guns that were converted and were already a monoblock design.

That said I have been thinking about pulling apart and relining some old damascus tubes then rebuild them as if they were just standard rifle barrels. That way I could get the look of the damascus but still have the modern rifle barrel on the inside.

Bill

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gitano
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
#54381 - 08/04/06 02:07 AM

Banzaibird,

I am also interested in colorado's processes. I am also interested in "from scrath" double bbl building, and finally, I am interested in the damascus bbl'd shotgun you are considering converting, as I have one I am considering for conversion too.

Since we're in the "askin'" mode, what have you heard regarding the use of damascus bbls for refit to rifle bbls? What I've heard is that the rifled liners, not the shotgun bbls, actually contain all of the pressure generated by the rifle cartridge anyway, so the fact that the original bbls might be damascus is immaterial. In my case, I'm only interested in BP loads or relatively low-pressure smokeless loads. By the same token, I would be buiding for .50 caliber cartridges, so the liners, even in a 12 gauge would be thinner than for something in .375, .40 or even .45 caliber.

Paul

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: gitano]
#54385 - 08/04/06 03:34 AM

Paul,

When relining the pressure is mostly taken by the liner itself. Now if there is a very tight fit between the liner and the outside barrel then the outside barrels would be providing strength as well. That's why I asked about the eccentric bushings. The idea there would be to turn the liners very thin and use the bushing to regulate by turning. The only problem that I see with this is that it lets voids between the 2 barrels. In fact this is my concern with using damascus barrels the way I want to use them. I think it would be very difficult to get a precise fit throughout the length of the shotgon bore and the liner. On top of that I don't really want to glue/epoxy them in place I'd like to solder them and realisticaly it would be about impossible to assure full solder coverage. I'm mostly worried about moisture and the impending rust that could occur in these voids. It would remain unseen until it was much too late.

I too was thinking of a old BP cartridge. Not sure which one but I have several old damascus barreled guns laying around with severly pitted barrels. So thus they are pretty much unusable as shotguns even though they have great patterns.

Bill

Edited by banzaibird (08/04/06 03:35 AM)

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gitano
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Loc: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
#54397 - 08/04/06 07:59 AM

In reply to:

That's why I asked about the eccentric bushings. The idea there would be to turn the liners very thin and use the bushing to regulate by turning. The only problem that I see with this is that it lets voids between the 2 barrels. In fact this is my concern with using damascus barrels the way I want to use them. I think it would be very difficult to get a precise fit throughout the length of the shotgon bore and the liner. On top of that I don't really want to glue/epoxy them in place I'd like to solder them and realisticaly it would be about impossible to assure full solder coverage.

I talked with a barrel liner maker about regulation, and he suggested the following: One insert is installed, essentially "straight", and the other is turned slightly eccentric. Then the eccentric bbl could be rotated as necessary to regulate to the "straight". While I don't think this is the "best" way to regulate bbls on a double rifle, it would "work" if your personal tolerances weren't too "tight". However, I bring it up for two reasons. First, I'm not sure you'd need to turn the liner too thin in order to put an appropriately sized shim in-between a smaller-than-bore-diameter liner and the bore. A few thousandths should suffice I'd think. Second, I feel comfortable saying that I could turn a liner to a very snug fit from breech to muzzle, and in doing so, would feel comfortable soldering (or gluing) the liner in without worry of voids.

Paul

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: banzaibird]
#54399 - 08/04/06 08:23 AM

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54404 - 08/04/06 09:56 AM

I'm just puzzled as to why you would choose this route? Is it to avoid rib-laying? In that case you are stuck with a shotgun rib, which is not the best for a double rifle by a long shot. How are you going to 'stick' the sights on? If you are going to solder in the inserts, the ribs will probably have to be relaid anyway.
signed
"Perplexed".

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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gitano
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Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 7
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54406 - 08/04/06 10:24 AM

In reply to:

I'm just puzzled as to why you would choose this route?

What route is that?

Paul

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54407 - 08/04/06 10:27 AM

Colorado,

How do you regulate the liners inside the barrels if you glue them in place? You can't regulate them after you glue them, right? What happens in 10 years when the one bore is worn a little harder then the other and it begins to change POI slightly? Do you need to rebarrel or is there a way to re-regulate? Would the glue make it through a re-blue? If you regulate for POI are you worried about them crossing in fire at a further distance? Any provisions for smaller calibers? Or will you still use the full shotgun barrel profile?

I ask all this stuff out of curiosity. To me this process almost seems as if it would be harder than monoblock and full barrels. I understand that you decided on this approach to keep costs down, for a comercial venture. So what do you feel are the main advantages to this system/process over a monoblock and barrel build?

As before I ask this simply for the learning value. Not to question the ways you make your guns.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: Marrakai]
#54412 - 08/04/06 11:31 AM

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54413 - 08/04/06 11:35 AM

I keep meaning to ask you, how is your gun regulated? Also are the barrels on the .577 sleaved? How about some photos of how your sights are mounted?

Thanks,
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Marrakai
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54433 - 08/04/06 09:58 PM

colorado:
My .577 on the Greener 'Empire' shotgun was built by sleeving new barrels, in the proper meaning of the term 'sleeving', ie lopping the old shotgun tubes in front of the barrel flats, what is often called a 'monobloc', and fitting the rifled barrels. It was then regulated in the normal manner, before laying the ribs.

It has newly manufactured ribs and sights, only a single standing rear sight. Part of the old rib containing the Greener address banner was used in the new quarter-rib. As I have pointed out before, the trajectory of the 650gr Woodleigh at 1650 fps does not deviate more than one inch from the line of sight out to beyond 100 yards, and is only 6 inches low at 150 yards, if sighted dead-on at 90 yards. Try it in your favourite ballistics software program and see for yourself! No flip-up sights needed for this type of cartridge, which is essentially close range anyway.

I will photograph the sights and toss them up as soon as I can.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54447 - 08/04/06 11:56 PM

OK, got busy with the digi-cam. Here we go:

Greener quarter-rib:

Rear sight on the quarter-rib, single fixed leaf for 0 - 110 yds:

Front sight ramp showing caterpillar bead:

Front sight from behind showing faceted diamond sight-bead:

This photo is enhanced to show the location of the sleeve joints, quite difficult as they are virtually invisible in normal light:

Hope this addresses some of your curiosity, colorado. If I was to commission this work myself, I would have preferred less 'chunky' and a little more 'elegant', but chunky does have a certain charm on this 'fat lady'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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BlainSmipy
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* [Re: banzaibird]
#56465 - 05/05/06 04:52 PM

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#56510 - 06/05/06 11:13 AM

Sounds interesting. I figured that the glue was permanent. I wasn't talking about the barrel simply moving on it's own I was referring to in 10-15 years after alot of shooting the difference that the barrel wear will have on the gun. Will the glue still release after that time? How about a refinish? Will the rust process of a reblue deteriorate the glue?

These were all things that I'd worry about with lining shotgun barrels with rifle tubes. Thus I found it easier to build up barrels sets by monoblock and rifle barrels.

Where are you putting it up for sale and what are you asking for the gun?

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: banzaibird]
#56521 - 06/05/06 02:41 PM

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57214 - 16/05/06 04:17 AM

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8x56mn
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Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 149
Loc: Wine Country, Finger Lakes Wa...

Re: New project Guns for the 50-90 and 50-140 Sharps D [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57220 - 16/05/06 05:46 AM

Colorado, I sent you a PM

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