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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: banzaibird]
#54356 - 07/04/06 01:15 PM

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54368 - 07/04/06 11:02 PM

Colorado,

I didn't realize that you were relining shotgun barrels. Are you using an eccentric bushing at the end that you turn for regulation? Do you do any boring work on the exisisting chamber barel before relining? Are you affixing the liner into the chamber area only? Where have been the balance points on the ones you've built so far?

Please don't take any of these questions as personal attacks on how your doing things. I just haven't seen anyone do this personally and was interested in the process you are using to get the results. All of the barrels I've built so far have been scratch built or using an existing monoblock from guns that were converted and were already a monoblock design.

That said I have been thinking about pulling apart and relining some old damascus tubes then rebuild them as if they were just standard rifle barrels. That way I could get the look of the damascus but still have the modern rifle barrel on the inside.

Bill

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gitano
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
#54381 - 08/04/06 02:07 AM

Banzaibird,

I am also interested in colorado's processes. I am also interested in "from scrath" double bbl building, and finally, I am interested in the damascus bbl'd shotgun you are considering converting, as I have one I am considering for conversion too.

Since we're in the "askin'" mode, what have you heard regarding the use of damascus bbls for refit to rifle bbls? What I've heard is that the rifled liners, not the shotgun bbls, actually contain all of the pressure generated by the rifle cartridge anyway, so the fact that the original bbls might be damascus is immaterial. In my case, I'm only interested in BP loads or relatively low-pressure smokeless loads. By the same token, I would be buiding for .50 caliber cartridges, so the liners, even in a 12 gauge would be thinner than for something in .375, .40 or even .45 caliber.

Paul

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: gitano]
#54385 - 08/04/06 03:34 AM

Paul,

When relining the pressure is mostly taken by the liner itself. Now if there is a very tight fit between the liner and the outside barrel then the outside barrels would be providing strength as well. That's why I asked about the eccentric bushings. The idea there would be to turn the liners very thin and use the bushing to regulate by turning. The only problem that I see with this is that it lets voids between the 2 barrels. In fact this is my concern with using damascus barrels the way I want to use them. I think it would be very difficult to get a precise fit throughout the length of the shotgon bore and the liner. On top of that I don't really want to glue/epoxy them in place I'd like to solder them and realisticaly it would be about impossible to assure full solder coverage. I'm mostly worried about moisture and the impending rust that could occur in these voids. It would remain unseen until it was much too late.

I too was thinking of a old BP cartridge. Not sure which one but I have several old damascus barreled guns laying around with severly pitted barrels. So thus they are pretty much unusable as shotguns even though they have great patterns.

Bill

Edited by banzaibird (08/04/06 03:35 AM)

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gitano
.224 member

Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
#54397 - 08/04/06 07:59 AM

In reply to:

That's why I asked about the eccentric bushings. The idea there would be to turn the liners very thin and use the bushing to regulate by turning. The only problem that I see with this is that it lets voids between the 2 barrels. In fact this is my concern with using damascus barrels the way I want to use them. I think it would be very difficult to get a precise fit throughout the length of the shotgon bore and the liner. On top of that I don't really want to glue/epoxy them in place I'd like to solder them and realisticaly it would be about impossible to assure full solder coverage.

I talked with a barrel liner maker about regulation, and he suggested the following: One insert is installed, essentially "straight", and the other is turned slightly eccentric. Then the eccentric bbl could be rotated as necessary to regulate to the "straight". While I don't think this is the "best" way to regulate bbls on a double rifle, it would "work" if your personal tolerances weren't too "tight". However, I bring it up for two reasons. First, I'm not sure you'd need to turn the liner too thin in order to put an appropriately sized shim in-between a smaller-than-bore-diameter liner and the bore. A few thousandths should suffice I'd think. Second, I feel comfortable saying that I could turn a liner to a very snug fit from breech to muzzle, and in doing so, would feel comfortable soldering (or gluing) the liner in without worry of voids.

Paul

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: banzaibird]
#54399 - 08/04/06 08:23 AM

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54404 - 08/04/06 09:56 AM

I'm just puzzled as to why you would choose this route? Is it to avoid rib-laying? In that case you are stuck with a shotgun rib, which is not the best for a double rifle by a long shot. How are you going to 'stick' the sights on? If you are going to solder in the inserts, the ribs will probably have to be relaid anyway.
signed
"Perplexed".

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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gitano
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Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54406 - 08/04/06 10:24 AM

In reply to:

I'm just puzzled as to why you would choose this route?

What route is that?

Paul

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54407 - 08/04/06 10:27 AM

Colorado,

How do you regulate the liners inside the barrels if you glue them in place? You can't regulate them after you glue them, right? What happens in 10 years when the one bore is worn a little harder then the other and it begins to change POI slightly? Do you need to rebarrel or is there a way to re-regulate? Would the glue make it through a re-blue? If you regulate for POI are you worried about them crossing in fire at a further distance? Any provisions for smaller calibers? Or will you still use the full shotgun barrel profile?

I ask all this stuff out of curiosity. To me this process almost seems as if it would be harder than monoblock and full barrels. I understand that you decided on this approach to keep costs down, for a comercial venture. So what do you feel are the main advantages to this system/process over a monoblock and barrel build?

As before I ask this simply for the learning value. Not to question the ways you make your guns.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: Marrakai]
#54412 - 08/04/06 11:31 AM

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54413 - 08/04/06 11:35 AM

I keep meaning to ask you, how is your gun regulated? Also are the barrels on the .577 sleaved? How about some photos of how your sights are mounted?

Thanks,
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#54433 - 08/04/06 09:58 PM

colorado:
My .577 on the Greener 'Empire' shotgun was built by sleeving new barrels, in the proper meaning of the term 'sleeving', ie lopping the old shotgun tubes in front of the barrel flats, what is often called a 'monobloc', and fitting the rifled barrels. It was then regulated in the normal manner, before laying the ribs.

It has newly manufactured ribs and sights, only a single standing rear sight. Part of the old rib containing the Greener address banner was used in the new quarter-rib. As I have pointed out before, the trajectory of the 650gr Woodleigh at 1650 fps does not deviate more than one inch from the line of sight out to beyond 100 yards, and is only 6 inches low at 150 yards, if sighted dead-on at 90 yards. Try it in your favourite ballistics software program and see for yourself! No flip-up sights needed for this type of cartridge, which is essentially close range anyway.

I will photograph the sights and toss them up as soon as I can.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: Marrakai]
#54447 - 08/04/06 11:56 PM

OK, got busy with the digi-cam. Here we go:

Greener quarter-rib:

Rear sight on the quarter-rib, single fixed leaf for 0 - 110 yds:

Front sight ramp showing caterpillar bead:

Front sight from behind showing faceted diamond sight-bead:

This photo is enhanced to show the location of the sleeve joints, quite difficult as they are virtually invisible in normal light:

Hope this addresses some of your curiosity, colorado. If I was to commission this work myself, I would have preferred less 'chunky' and a little more 'elegant', but chunky does have a certain charm on this 'fat lady'!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: banzaibird]
#56465 - 05/05/06 04:52 PM

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
#56510 - 06/05/06 11:13 AM

Sounds interesting. I figured that the glue was permanent. I wasn't talking about the barrel simply moving on it's own I was referring to in 10-15 years after alot of shooting the difference that the barrel wear will have on the gun. Will the glue still release after that time? How about a refinish? Will the rust process of a reblue deteriorate the glue?

These were all things that I'd worry about with lining shotgun barrels with rifle tubes. Thus I found it easier to build up barrels sets by monoblock and rifle barrels.

Where are you putting it up for sale and what are you asking for the gun?

Bill

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: banzaibird]
#56521 - 06/05/06 02:41 PM

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BlainSmipy
.375 member

Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA

* [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57214 - 16/05/06 04:17 AM

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8x56mn
.300 member

Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 149
Loc: Wine Country, Finger Lakes Wa...

Re: New project Guns for the 50-90 and 50-140 Sharps D [Re: BlainSmipy]
#57220 - 16/05/06 05:46 AM

Colorado, I sent you a PM

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