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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
What is the fastest most dangerous animal charge?
      #51283 - 03/03/06 01:08 PM

We all worry about dangerous game charges. Upon reflection and reading a serious Leopard charge at the same distance as a lion/buff would seem to be the nastiest. Blinding fast,smaller signature,low in the grass--Double or not-BAD NEWS!!

Boddington described a scary one in G&A.

How fast can the leopard come? 25 yds in 2 seconds,low, hot, and for keeps is really tough.

Maybe a lion or buff charge is more stoppable than that leopard? Which animal is the nastiest? Any thoughts/experience?

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gryphon
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51319 - 03/03/06 07:07 PM

wouldnt matter would it really as anyone worth his salt should be capable of getting two good shots away..shots that count i mean.

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51320 - 03/03/06 07:13 PM

gryphon

That's a big statement. Are you talking from experience ?
Charging Sambar ?

Do you reckon you are capable of 2 shots in 2 seconds at
a leopard coming low and fast and guaranteeing 100%
they are on the mark and will save your clients life ?

Have you ever tried it on targets ? It's not that easy
and certainly not with a bolt gun and probably a
double in a stopper calibre due to recoil.

500 Nitro

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gryphon
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51321 - 03/03/06 07:34 PM

Well for a start i hunt for myself or a few reciprocal friends...i dont have clients and yes you may think it a big statement but i`m happy to back myself,i never mentioned a bolt rifle at all either and my statement was with an auto or double in mind.....ok howls of protest i have heard them all before about autos on charging animals but every one to their own i say.....and you have to admit some folks can be better shots than the average Joe too plus a "readability" of game that many will never get...
IE some hunters will repeatedly bring home the bacon whereas many will go forth plenty of times but never score...please dont think i`m one of them cobber

I`m sure that you have been around the traps long enough to sort the wheat from the chaff yourself eh! Surely you know fella`s in your own circle of wisdom that havent been to Africa that could nonethe less cut the mustard but then i`m also sure that you could know plenty that could never cut the mustard no matter how many frigging times they went to Afica. Am i wrong in being confident of my own abilities you tell me! I ask you the same question yourself in return also.
I also imagine that the worst case scenario is for someone of the wrong ilk with no confidence at all shitting in his pants about having to knock down a charging leopard or whatever and with possibly disastrous consequences.

I almost took umbrage at your silly little "charging sambar" line but then i have been in many other hunting camps so i know what to expect note two grins today.

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hoppdoc
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal charge? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51323 - 03/03/06 08:21 PM

I think a Leopard would be tough--

BUT had a local hunter who went to Africa who would disagree-he muffed several shots on a Buff,then got charged by the Buff and finally dropped him at bad breath distance with his 458 Bolt with its 2 pound "hair" trigger with a shotoff his hip!!.The last of 4 rounds got the Buff at his feet.

What did he do then? Sat down and tried to breathe and not throw up.

He doesn't hunt with that big bolt anymore.He gave no comment on wanting a Double.He thinks two shots would not be enough.Guess He would rather be lucky than good any day.

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51327 - 03/03/06 09:00 PM

gryphon

For someone who hasn't hunted DG and has never faced
a charge of any kind, I just think what you said was a very
big statement.

How many double rifles do you own / have you shot
and what calibres ?

"and you have to admit some folks can be better shots than the average Joe too
plus a "readability" of game that many will never get..." read the story by
Boddington on his charge and other Lion and Leopard charges and tell me how
you can read game when you can't see it !. And he's got more experience than everyone on this forum

With such a big statement, I'd almost like to pay for you to
face a charge from a Leopard or Lion and just see how you fare.

One of you would end up dead and that would settle the argument
once a for all.

I know plenty of very good target shots who are useless in the field
shooting at animals.

I am confident of my abilities as I have practised it at the range and
know what is required in the field in regards to charging game.
The best I have done (under pressure in competition) is 4 shots
from a Win Mod 70 30-06 at 3 separate targets spaced 10- 15 yards
apart at 25 yards distance.
Total time taken was 9 seconds and all turned out to be killing shots
in the 10 rings. The targets were a picture of a charging lion and the
scoring rings were on the back.

My reference to "charging sambar" lthat you almost took umbrage to
was because I was trying to work out what you had been charged by
in making such a statement.

500 Nitro

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gryphon
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51333 - 03/03/06 11:26 PM

For someone who hasn't hunted DG and has never faced
a charge of any kind, I just think what you said was a very
big statement.
SO I HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE IN MY ABILITY..SO WHAT!

How many double rifles do you own / have you shot
and what calibres ?

WHAT? YOU SOUND LIKE A COPPER! SO NOW I HAVE TO PROVE TO YOU THAT I HAVE SHOT DOUBLES ETC WTF FOR? DOES IT MAKE SOME SORT OF SUPER HUNTER TO OWN OR HAVE USED DOUBLE RIFLES...COME ON YOU ARE KIDDING ARENT YOU?

"and you have to admit some folks can be better shots than the average Joe too
plus a "readability" of game that many will never get..." read the story by
Boddington on his charge and other Lion and Leopard charges and tell me how
you can read game when you can't see it !. And he's got more experience than everyone on this forum

i THINK IF YOU KNEW A LITTLE MORE YOURSELF YOU WOULDNT BE QUOTING A NAME LIKE OLD BOD`S MATE, MANY OTHER NAMES ARE FAR MORE EMINENT THAN OLD BODS HE`S JUST ANOTHER HUNTING MAG WRITER THAT I READ IN THE SCI JOURNALS,MUCH THE SAME AS THE REST OF THEM FROM AROUND THE WORLD. TRY CORBETT IF YOU WANT TO IMPRESS,MAYBE A LITTLE BELL THROWN IN TOO!

With such a big statement, I'd almost like to pay for you to
face a charge from a Leopard or Lion and just see how you fare.

WELL THATS AN ANGLE I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLORE MYSELF ...I`M WILLING IF YOUR PURSE IS AND MY PASSPORT IS UP TO DATE COBBER.


I know plenty of very good target shots who are useless in the field
shooting at animals.
I DONT KNOW WHERE THIS COMES INTO IT AS I DONT TARGET SHOOT AT ALL ,NEVER HAVE COBBER...I`M A HUNTER NOT A PAPER MAN AND I DONT CARE HOW OR WHAT YOU HAVE PERSONALLY SHOT ON A TARGET AS IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE AT ALL TO THE SUBJECT OF BEING ABLE TO GET A COUPLE OF SHOTS OF AT CHARGING LIVE GAME FOR GAWDS SAKE HAHA SHOOT ALL THE BULLS YOU LIKE ON PAPER I ;LIKE MINE WITH HAIR ON `EM AND A BIG SWINGING SET OF BALLS TOO.


My reference to "charging sambar" lthat you almost took umbrage to
was because I was trying to work out what you had been charged by
in making such a statement.

SO IT APPEARS THAT ONE HAS TO HAVE BEEN CHARGED BY SOMETHING TO ESTABLISH HIS/HERS BONA FIDES IT SEEMS IN YOUR EYES.
IT ALSO SEEMS FROM YOUR POST THAT YOU APPEAR TO SAY THAT BECAUSE ONE HASNT DONE SOMETHING PREVIOUSLY HE THEREFORE CANT DO IT AT ALL...JUST REMEMBER MATE THAT EVERY PERSON THAT HAS EVER SQUEEZED A TRIGGER THEY ALSO HAD THEIR FIRST TIMES, WETHER IT BE CAMEL, RAT CAT,ZEBRA, LION,BOAR WHATEVER,WE ALL START SOMEWHERE AND ALL I HAVE SIMPLY SAID IS THAT I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN MY ABILITY TO DO IT AND I HOPE YOU CHECK YOUR BANK BALANCE OUT AND THERE IS ENOUGH IN IT FOR THAT TRIP YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE ME ON


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3512
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal charge? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51335 - 03/03/06 11:44 PM

Sorry hoppdoc, time to start ignoring this thread, apparently.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Marty
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia
Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51344 - 04/03/06 01:04 AM

In reply to:

For someone who hasn't hunted DG and has never faced
a charge of any kind, I just think what you said was a very
big statement.
SO I HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE IN MY ABILITY..SO WHAT!

How many double rifles do you own / have you shot
and what calibres ?

WHAT? YOU SOUND LIKE A COPPER! SO NOW I HAVE TO PROVE TO YOU THAT I HAVE SHOT DOUBLES ETC WTF FOR? DOES IT MAKE SOME SORT OF SUPER HUNTER TO OWN OR HAVE USED DOUBLE RIFLES...COME ON YOU ARE KIDDING ARENT YOU?

"and you have to admit some folks can be better shots than the average Joe too
plus a "readability" of game that many will never get..." read the story by
Boddington on his charge and other Lion and Leopard charges and tell me how
you can read game when you can't see it !. And he's got more experience than everyone on this forum

i THINK IF YOU KNEW A LITTLE MORE YOURSELF YOU WOULDNT BE QUOTING A NAME LIKE OLD BOD`S MATE, MANY OTHER NAMES ARE FAR MORE EMINENT THAN OLD BODS HE`S JUST ANOTHER HUNTING MAG WRITER THAT I READ IN THE SCI JOURNALS,MUCH THE SAME AS THE REST OF THEM FROM AROUND THE WORLD. TRY CORBETT IF YOU WANT TO IMPRESS,MAYBE A LITTLE BELL THROWN IN TOO!

With such a big statement, I'd almost like to pay for you to
face a charge from a Leopard or Lion and just see how you fare.

WELL THATS AN ANGLE I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLORE MYSELF ...I`M WILLING IF YOUR PURSE IS AND MY PASSPORT IS UP TO DATE COBBER.


I know plenty of very good target shots who are useless in the field
shooting at animals.
I DONT KNOW WHERE THIS COMES INTO IT AS I DONT TARGET SHOOT AT ALL ,NEVER HAVE COBBER...I`M A HUNTER NOT A PAPER MAN AND I DONT CARE HOW OR WHAT YOU HAVE PERSONALLY SHOT ON A TARGET AS IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE AT ALL TO THE SUBJECT OF BEING ABLE TO GET A COUPLE OF SHOTS OF AT CHARGING LIVE GAME FOR GAWDS SAKE HAHA SHOOT ALL THE BULLS YOU LIKE ON PAPER I ;LIKE MINE WITH HAIR ON `EM AND A BIG SWINGING SET OF BALLS TOO.


My reference to "charging sambar" lthat you almost took umbrage to
was because I was trying to work out what you had been charged by
in making such a statement.

SO IT APPEARS THAT ONE HAS TO HAVE BEEN CHARGED BY SOMETHING TO ESTABLISH HIS/HERS BONA FIDES IT SEEMS IN YOUR EYES.
IT ALSO SEEMS FROM YOUR POST THAT YOU APPEAR TO SAY THAT BECAUSE ONE HASNT DONE SOMETHING PREVIOUSLY HE THEREFORE CANT DO IT AT ALL...JUST REMEMBER MATE THAT EVERY PERSON THAT HAS EVER SQUEEZED A TRIGGER THEY ALSO HAD THEIR FIRST TIMES, WETHER IT BE CAMEL, RAT CAT,ZEBRA, LION,BOAR WHATEVER,WE ALL START SOMEWHERE AND ALL I HAVE SIMPLY SAID IS THAT I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN MY ABILITY TO DO IT AND I HOPE YOU CHECK YOUR BANK BALANCE OUT AND THERE IS ENOUGH IN IT FOR THAT TRIP YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE ME ON


So your experience in all this is what, exactly??

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new_guy
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: hoppdoc]
      #51355 - 04/03/06 03:12 AM

The worst thing I can imagine facing with a rifle in a "charge" is a Mamba.

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www.heymUSA.com

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51372 - 04/03/06 06:00 AM


I hae no problems with you having confidence in your ability
or backing yourself. It's just you came up with a big statement
about Charges and then Doubles without any experience of either.
How can you say you can shoot 2 well aimed shots out of a double
at a charging Leopard with no experience of either ?

Re I THINK IF YOU KNEW A LITTLE MORE YOURSELF
YOU WOULDNT BE QUOTING A NAME LIKE OLD BOD`S MATE,
I only quoted Boddington as it had been mentioned by the other poster
and I had also read the save article. FYI, I have also read all the other
authors. And what's wrong with Bod anyway, at least he's been there
and done it on a number of occasions and writes about the current situation.

Re I DONT KNOW WHERE THIS COMES INTO IT AS I DONT TARGET SHOOT AT ALL "
It was in ref to your initial last paragraph about other people "being able to cut the mustard".

If you don't shoot targets at all, how do you sight your rifle in ?
And IMHO, practice before you go in the field in good and that is where you
see people shoot well and then you see them in the field and they don't shoot well.

And I practised the situation of what to do if and when I ended up facing a charge
so that it would be instictive and when it did eventually happen my reaction was
instinctive. And IMHO, experience does count for a lot.

500 Nitro

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gryphon
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Marty]
      #51385 - 04/03/06 07:20 AM

Marty Re read my answer and maybe you will get the gist of it...a grasp of plain English will tell anyone that has it.

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gryphon
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51391 - 04/03/06 07:57 AM

I
My my go back and read my original answering post it said

"wouldnt matter would it really as anyone worth his salt should be capable of getting two good shots away..shots that count i mean."

So you other members dispute that, do any of you? Obviously!


f you don't shoot targets at all, how do you sight your rifle in ?
And IMHO, practice before you go in the field in good and that is where you
see people shoot well and then you see them in the field and they don't shoot well.

Ah i was under the impression that you actively shot paper at the range,i have never been to a range ever! Any sighting in is a quick few shots at any old board up against a tree down the paddock,i have never been one to sit for bloody hours trying to turn my hunting rifle into a tackholer,my interest in firing ammo off is at game wether its a rabbit or bigger not having a day out at little river or elsewhere.

And to other double rifle owners that frequent this forum i say "what? do you have no confidence in your OWN ability to get a couple of shots off at a charging whatever?" Well it appears so to me if you are questioning the ability of any one else,now you tell me if any other bastard can do it why the F cant i? At nearly 54 with an absolute lifetime of using a rifle i aint exactly a fuggin novice and thats from shooting as a young kid ...far longer than the 36 fuggin years i have been licenced.
All we are bloody gabbling about is shooting a fast moving animal coming at you rather than going away or crossing you and if its got teeth or claws so what!

Is this double rifle club so exclusive that you have to actually own one to be able to use one?
You blokes with the doubles have often cited that there is nothing quicker blah blah so whats the problem in getting off a couple of shots?
Earlier i also mentioned the word "auto" and if you ever saw a Browning Bar in 458 WM putting them out you might just see another light.


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homemadeDR
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51400 - 04/03/06 08:38 AM

Gryphon, regarding:
"wouldnt matter would it really as anyone worth his salt should be capable of getting two good shots away..shots that count i mean."

So you other members dispute that, do any of you? Obviously!

I dispute it. I thank God that I have never been in that situation because I do not think (IMHO) that anyone can 1) realize the direction from which the cat is coming 2)position yourself accordingly for a shot 3) shoulder your rifle 4) take aim at what must seem like a bouncing pin head and get off TWO good shots in under 2 seconds (keeping in mind that at the 2 second mark he already has you in his jaws). I've enjoyed reading this post but I hope that 500 nitro does not have sufficiently deep pockets to fund the ultimate experiment.

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luv2safari
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: gryphon]
      #51402 - 04/03/06 08:40 AM

gryphon,
Years ago we had a problem with a real tough moose. I was using my BAR in 338 back then, when my buddy, Jimmy, plunked the moose in the lung area with his sporterized 303 Enfield. We were both glad as hell that I had the 338 BAR in that close quarters willow patch. I had an empty magazine when all things quieted down, and yes...I'm a good shot.

Your points are well taken, IMO.

hoppdoc,
I believe that my worst fear of a charge would be from a Leopard, then Lion.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (04/03/06 08:42 AM)

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: luv2safari]
      #51406 - 04/03/06 10:28 AM

luv2safari

There is a big difference between a tough moose in a willow patch
and a lightning fast leopard at close quarters. That's why some PH's
like Shotguns for followng Leopard up isn't it.

A BAR is a good fast working gun though but 2 seconds is a very
short time.

500 Nitro

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Yogi000
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51411 - 04/03/06 10:44 AM

Hey, interesting pount there: PH's packing shotguns. Now for those leopard kills with shotgun are they using slug in one barrel and 00 in the other barrel or two slugs? Any info would be appreciated. I'm in a debate with someone about this very topic.

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Yogi000]
      #51413 - 04/03/06 11:01 AM


Yogi000

I will try to find some of my references but my library is packed up
at the moment.

I believe (from Memory) that they DON'T use one slug
but large shot.

500 Nitro

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Yogi000
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: 500Nitro]
      #51416 - 04/03/06 11:16 AM

Yeah I just moved too. I hate having my books in boxes for so long a time. And yes I would suppose 000 or 00 would be the large shot they use. I've used 9 pellet 000 in my 12 gauge. Does some nasty work really. I heard about "Coyote Killers" they are actually sold that way, supposed to be mortally effective out to 100 meters! ...this is with large shot/pellets... hard to believe but they do testimonials (if those can be beleived), but shot technology is getting amazing. Often when I'm walking in areas where there have been dangerous game, I like to have a double shotgun; one with slug and one with 000. Or both with slugs. Just me, maybe.

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Yogi000
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Yogi000]
      #51417 - 04/03/06 11:18 AM

Oh, and to answer the posts question--- I would think a winged and very unhappy leopard would be just about the most challenging to stop. Too fast. Not big enough target to confidently hit.

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Yogi000]
      #51420 - 04/03/06 11:32 AM


Yogi000

I didn't move - just needed some space for a heap of Enlish Gun case for a few months.

I just look at that Video that was going around the 'net of the canned Lion
hunt that went wrong and 3 or 4 people including a PH couldn't stop a charging
Lion over a fair distance.

And since a Leopard tends to attack at closer range and is lightning fast
(as though a Lion is not fast enough !!!), then ...... well, I'd at least want a back
up.

500 Nitro

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ozhunter
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Yogi000]
      #51421 - 04/03/06 11:34 AM

I have experienced and hunted with a few guys that have been charged by Elephant, Buffalo, Rino, Lion and leopard and some which have been mauled by Lion and Leopard and hammered by Rino and Cape Buff.
It seemes that with Leopard the attack will be silent,short and fast (often when not quite ready), but not often fatal but expect major agony and bad flesh wounds.
Buffalo will hook you with their horns after coming through bush even after being hit with good shots. If they get on top of you they use the Boss of the horns to mash your chest int the ground.Often fatal or serious damage.
Getting hit by a Rino often means flying ten meters through the air if not gored and stomped.
Lion will warn you with growling and flicking of the tail.
often fatal if your shots don't hit right.
Charges by Eliphant are the most common as they are so bad tempered and are often bumped into while after other big game. often the charge is stoped but if not, expect to be turned into jelly. I met one PH who had one client run over by a Ele but luckily escaped major damage.
Do not rely on your PH to protect you, he will try, but you only need a bush in the way to stop him shooting effectively. You would be surprised how many clients get hurt on safari.
Happy hunting,
Adam C.

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new_guy
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: Yogi000]
      #51423 - 04/03/06 12:20 PM

In reply to:

Hey, interesting pount there: PH's packing shotguns. Now for those leopard kills with shotgun are they using slug in one barrel and 00 in the other barrel or two slugs? Any info would be appreciated. I'm in a debate with someone about this very topic.



My PH carries the following to the leopard blind.

1) 375 H&H
2) 44 mag S&W
3) AR-15
4) Pump 12 w/00buck

Each situation is probably different, and I guess with these he feels prepared for whatever the particular situation might call for.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: ozhunter]
      #51424 - 04/03/06 12:46 PM

ozhunter

That's one thing about Leopard, they tend to scratch and bite but often
move on whereas a Lion will stay and chew !!!

Re PH's, it's still your decision to go into / after DG so I don't
know why people always blame the PH.

500 Nitro

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jscybercat
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Re: What is the fastest most dangerous animal char [Re: new_guy]
      #51425 - 04/03/06 12:53 PM

I'm assuming you see the thing coming from 25 yards (standing start)? If you don't I would think either lion or leopard would have you. (Not talking from experience either.)

I think I'd want a 12 gauge pump or double barrel loaded with 3 inch magnum 00 buckshot (on a leopard anyway.)

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