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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Good idea.
      #50066 - 16/02/06 04:53 AM



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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50075 - 16/02/06 06:59 AM

I don't think you could reload on a lion or leopard charge even if the charge started from 150 yards out. They are just too fast.

However, most charges start at close range - well under 30 yards, so my personal opinion is that reloading is not an option.


There are cases where pumping lead into the body of a buffalo during a charge will slow him down or even cause him to stop and stand. At that point you could reload.

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50079 - 16/02/06 07:52 AM

In reply to:

The lion charge I saw on film was the greatest charge I've ever seen. It was filmed at least 30 years ago (an Eastman film I think) and the hunter was killing a man eater. The cat charged from about 50 yrds and moved like lighting. The hunter had nerves of steel and stood up to the charge. He was using a bolt action and shot the lion at least four times. He never took the gun off his shoulder, jacking the rounds like an automatic. It was cool! I saw it on TV when I was 10 yrs old and have never seen it since.




Good morning Mr. Phelps. Your mission, whether you want it or not, is to find that video and post a link to it here!!!!!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50104 - 16/02/06 02:16 PM

In reply to:

My opinion thus far is that you'd better stop him/them in the first two shots because thats all your going to get. Am I wrong here?




Colorado,
With Lion or Leopard, from what I've read about their speed, if they were coming at full pace from about 40 yards and your first two shots failed to slow them, you would be lucky to get the barrels open to start the reload before they would be all over you!

If you are shooting one of those non ejector doubles that supposedly recoils so damn high that you can just break the gun at top of recoil and let the cases fall out, man you will be lucky to get any more than one shot away before they (lion/leopard) would be on you!

If however, your first two shots from your ejector double were well placed, your animal will be down before he reaches you and you then may have time for a fast reload in case the #ucker tries to get up again!

If you are shooting one of those non ejector doubles that supposedly recoils so damn high that you can just break the gun at top of recoil and let the cases fall out, AND you use the cartridges carried between the fingers of the fore hand to do a reload, and you have a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other, you're most likely in the deep stuff cause while you're checking that you've actually got those cases between your fingers and then deciding what barrel to fire first, you'll most likely forget to put the safety off and ole pussy cat will be on ya 'fore ya can git a shot away and is gunna be doin' a bit of unzipping on yer hide!



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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: 4seventy]
      #50117 - 16/02/06 05:03 PM

colorado
Good question. I suggest you get ALL of Mark Sulivan's tapes and watch them in the order they were filmed.
You can see how he perfected the technique of stopping a charge, over time. He was good/lucky [take your pick] enough to survive enough charges to illustrate the best plan of action. His technique saved my life.
The "plan" is, when charged you hold your fire until the animal is close enough for you to make a brain hit. No other hit but a brain or possibly upper spine will stop the animal. With a double you have 2 shots. One real close, and if that does not work one VERY close. The advantage of a double is the second VERY close shot, no other rifle gives you that option.

Watch Marks videos, study and perfect his technique.
As I say it saved my life.

I was armed with a bolt action 458 Win Mag [I wished I had my 450 No2 double rifle I can tell you for sure] when a 350 lb Gorilla charged me from 12 yards. I fired at 6 yards, hitting him in the Head and knocking him down.
I must admit, seeing Marks videos, and studying his technique gave me the confidence to hold my fire until I was sure that I could hit with one shot [I had a bolt rifle, remember]. At any distance inside 25 yards one shot with a bolt rifle was all I was going to get.

A couple of months later shooting elephants at 6 yards and 12 yards with a double....
Well I felt I was in complete control, after all I had DOUBLE RIFLE.
When it is dangerous, and up close NOTHING will guarentee your safety more than a Double Rifle.
A bolt rifle or even a single shot, well handled, will work, but a double gives you a BUNCH of insurance.

As to a fast reload, I carry extra ammo in a buttstock carrier by www.murrayleather.com

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: NE450No2]
      #50252 - 18/02/06 09:08 PM

Can you post the details of your Gorilla encounter? Would really like to hear it.

I just finished reading "Gorilla Hunter" by Fred Merfield. I found it to be a very interesting book and would suggest it to anyone interested in Gorilla's or the Cameroon. Has anyone read it?

--------------------
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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: NE450No2]
      #50260 - 19/02/06 01:45 AM

OK.

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Marrakai
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50298 - 19/02/06 09:40 AM

The thing most people tend to overlook is that in many cases, the shot that provoked the charge has left you with one empty barrel. You are then facing the charge essentially with a single shot rifle!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50299 - 19/02/06 10:22 AM


colorado

A spine shot that breaks the neck (as opposed to just clips the vertabrae)
will also stop a charge.

500 Nitro

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #50302 - 19/02/06 11:07 AM

30 yards is 90 feet. 50 yards is 150 feet.

Most of the critters you listed can do 30 to 40 mph easily.

If my math skills are still up to speed, an animal doing 30 mph can cover about 42 feet per second. At 30 yards, if you can reload and aim in 2 seconds, there is a slight chance. At 50 yards, you have not quite 4 seconds. Maybe enough.

For the 40 mph animal, they can cover about 56 feet a second. 30 yards being 90 feet gives you less than 2 seconds, and at 50 yards, you have just under 3 seconds.

All that said, this is why a double rifle exists. You have a second shot ready. While you need to fire it close to the timing of the first shot (the second barrel relies on a hot first barrel) I believe my Heym says within 8 seconds to have an accurate second shot.

Even with ejectors, I would bet that most of us could not reload and aim in less that 4 seconds. About te same amount of time to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. Wounded dangerous game tends not to know it is dead until many seconds after a fatal shot is finally delivered.

You will probably see a lion, buff and elephant coming, but not a leopard. Lions and elephants, per the tales I have been told, can be deafening on a charge. And the Cape buff will move the ground between the two of you. So I've been told.

While a sidearm would be great, it is my understanding that they are not keen on handguns in Africa.



--------------------
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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: Marrakai]
      #50306 - 19/02/06 12:00 PM



Seems simple enough.

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: Grizzly]
      #50309 - 19/02/06 12:25 PM

Grzz,

Any handgun that would be big enough to stop a buff or an elephant in a charge probably isn't going to be any handier (due to size) than the DR in your hands .

BB

Edited by banzaibird (19/02/06 12:27 PM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50310 - 19/02/06 01:33 PM

Colorado,

Although there are a few native trackers who will stand by you in a charge in order to hand over your second gun, there is no way for you to know if you have such a tracker/gun bearer or not until it's too late.

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50313 - 19/02/06 01:58 PM

Bayonet?

Dave

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: 500grains]
      #50337 - 20/02/06 06:35 AM

You can always hope.

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50339 - 20/02/06 07:06 AM


Bayonet ?

At this point a bible, prayer mat and a miracle
would probably be more appropriate !!!

500 Nitro

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #50340 - 20/02/06 07:13 AM





The businees end of one of my bore rifles.
Note the bayonet lug.
The gun is vintage 1860 and is a 16ga cartridge rifle.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
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Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: tinker]
      #50350 - 20/02/06 09:50 AM

Who said the sidearm was for the beast?

A bayonet lug on a DR. But in Kalifornia, doesn't that classify it as an assault rifle?



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DDouble
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: Grizzly]
      #50536 - 22/02/06 01:20 PM

If reloading is impossible during a charge, then an O/U would be equal to a S/S for dangerous game. Who agrees with that??

Ejectors and extractors would be the same too???

After you shoot any of the dangerous animas (and I have shot elephant, buffalo and cats) either you run to him or he runs towards you.

If you dont have a magazine rifle I would like to have the S/S and ejectors.

I would truly believe in reloading. Even if not during the charge itself. Because "out there" things find a way to happen in stranger and crazier ways than you ever imagined they could...

Dante

--------------------
Ddouble

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: DDouble]
      #50539 - 22/02/06 02:24 PM

Thats true for sure.

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NE450No2
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50540 - 22/02/06 02:59 PM

colorado
I have both ejector and extractor double rifles. I would have to say, all else being equal, that a hammerless ejector is the fastest to reload.

However I used my ejector double to shoot a buff at 12 yards, an elephant at 6 yards, and an elephant at 12 yards.
I do not feel the least bit handicappede with an ejecdtor double.

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tinker
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50541 - 22/02/06 03:00 PM

Perhaps you can look at ejectors as cheap insurance.

I've had fairly extensive training with the 1911 .45
One thing I've been trained to do --given the time-- is to quickly check my chamber without taking the gun *too far* out of the fight. My instructors used to call the chamber check 'a half a second of cheap insurance'
Same goes with 'tactical reloads' where *again, given the time* the gunfighter freshens up the supply of ammunition by quickly swapping out the magazine with a full one before the gun is run dry, pocketing the partially full magazine for later use if necessary.

--

Shoot a big freakin animal that might have the chance to reduce you to a grease spot in the dirt or rip your throat out with a swat of one of it's undamaged paws, once mabye twice, and have time to do a quick reload? That second or two flipping a couple of pieces of brass out of your chambers might be enough to cost you your life, might not.
To some, those well tuned and maintained ejectors might just be a good form of cheap insurance.

Back when that pinfire double rifle with the bayonet lug pictured above was made, there weren't on-board extractors on the rifle. The bayonet was the 'cheap insurance' policy installed at the factory...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50562 - 22/02/06 09:58 PM

In reply to:

and because of this, find the argument about ejectors vs. extractors, exposed hammers vs. hammerless and ML vs. cartridge mute



Yes, but only in a very close charge situation.
In many other hunting situations ejectors can make a huge difference to the reload time.

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bulldog563
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: 4seventy]
      #50567 - 22/02/06 11:55 PM

Yeah, also what happens if the nasty critter stumbles from one of the hits giving you that extra split second that you need to reload. Can anyone really say that when the shit hits the fan you would rather have a hammer extractor DR then a hammerless ejector? I wouldn't!

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Reloading a double during a charge. [Re: bulldog563]
      #50575 - 23/02/06 01:53 AM

Gotta be fast I guess.

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