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NitroXAdministrator
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Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt
      #48969 - 02/02/06 06:52 PM

OK a more controversial topic.

The modern stunt hunt.

I think a reasonable definition of a modern day dangerous game stunt hunt would be one where one needs to depend on the PH backing you up.

Some examples:

A bow hunt, would you would hunt cape buffalo without having a PH holding your hand with a .458 Lott;

A 45/70 lever action hunt, and you shoot the buffalo from the back of the bakkie AND have an armed PH along as well;

Using a medium sized calibre rifle - same deal, unless you would be willing to do it solo;

Having an adequate firearm but you ask the PH to "back you up" shooting the beast at the same time as you do. Just in case.

Do you think as I do, that these all scenarios are examples of "stunt hunts"?





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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #48972 - 02/02/06 07:15 PM

In a general sense, I'd have to say yes. However, because of the hunting regulations in most, if not, all African countries, having a PH along is a prerequisite to hunting, (unless the client is a resident of the country), even if the client is adequately armed.

IMO, I doubt that most hunters who try these stunt hunts would do so if there wasn't an adequately armed PH around to cover their butt in case something went terribly wrong.

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500Nitro
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #48976 - 02/02/06 08:09 PM


NitroX

I agree with you.

Re the "A bow hunt, would you would hunt cape buffalo without having a PH holding your hand with a .458 Lott;"

not just Cape Buffalo but our Water Buffalo.

Ask the bow hunter who nearly got killed last year by bow hunting alone
and got very badly gored by a Water Buffalo but luckily just got out of it
and managed to get back to camp where again, luckily one of his hunting
mates "decided" to come back early and found him.

He still ended up stuffed in Hospital.

He was lucky.

500 Nitro

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larcher
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: 500Nitro]
      #48978 - 02/02/06 09:02 PM

Am I right?

The Australian water buffalo is perhaps the meanest game on earth.

Is it real that anytime a water buff is hit, he'll come at you had he seen, heart or smelt You?

BTW : the word stunt has many meanings. Are "bluff", "overdo" and "show off" synonyms?



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"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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AspenHill
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #48994 - 03/02/06 01:04 AM

So when you are rifle hunting buffalo, ele, etc the PH is not standing there with his .458 Lott to cover your/his arse? Only when you bowhunt?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: AspenHill]
      #48998 - 03/02/06 01:11 AM

Hey nothing wrong with a 'stunt' hunt.

I would oneday like to hunt a buffalo with a bow too. But I wouldn't even think about it if I was alone with a bow and no backup. Unless I was nice and high in a tree!

I think the PH on a bow hunt should use a bow as backup too.

Now if I had my .375 bolt action or .450 double I don't have a problem with doing it alone (if it was legal). It didn't stop newcomers in the old days so why now (except for the regs).



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500Nitro
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: larcher]
      #49006 - 03/02/06 01:48 AM


Larcher,

Re Is it real that anytime a water buff is hit, he'll come at you had he seen, heart or smelt You?"
I wouldn't say all the time as they often run, just the odd time.
A person is killed every so often / year or two.

Re The Australian water buffalo is perhaps the meanest game on earth."
I counldn't answer that as I haven't seen the others in the Wild
but they are pricks when they want to be.

500 Nitro

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JPK
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49007 - 03/02/06 01:49 AM

I think shooting a buff with a 45/70 is pure stunt since the hunt, stalk and shot are all pretty similar to what would happen if the hunter were using a real, legal, DG rifle. Some shot angles might be precluded with a 45/70, but then some are precluded with a 375, some shots possible with , say, Saeeds 404/375, are not possible with a 458wm...

In the end the only difference is the rifle, and the stunt hunter is trumpetting his rifle and cartridge. When the shooter says, "Wow, look at the extraordinary performance of this bullet and load out of this rifle, see, it can be done", you have a stunt hunt, when the shooter says, "Performance was, as expected, just fine", you just have a good hunt.

Switch rifles the minimum, a 9.3x62, or 375H&H, and the hunt would go the same except it would be legal and the hunter would stand a better chance of stopping a charge.

Bow hunting is different. The stalk can't end at 50yds, in tick stuff where your'r sneaking your barrel between branches...The bow hunter needs to get close every time and must end up in a position which allows him to draw the bow, and clear enough to allow for the arrows trajectory.

For this reason, the focus might be on the weapon, but really ought to be on the stalk. I think a fellow who has hunted buff with a rifle, and who goes back with a bow, is not stunt hunting since he knows what he's getting into.

For the fellow who has killed whitetails and maybe an elk or two to go buff hunting with a bow is stunt hunting.

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: 500Nitro]
      #49009 - 03/02/06 01:53 AM

From my limited experience, but also from conversations with other hunters, I think the scrub bull is much more likely to charge, wounded or unwounded.

Only two scrub bulls so far, no charges, but the first definitely appeared to be looking for someone.



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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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EricD
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49011 - 03/02/06 01:58 AM

John,

I would agree with that the examples you mention can be veiwed as "stunt hunts".

But it would also depend on what this is: "a medium sized calibre rifle - same deal, unless you would be willing to do it solo"

If you consider a 375H&H a medium sized rifle (which many here do!), I would say that I would have no problem going to Cameroon alone, and using this for buffalo and elephant. But I would try to avoid taking dodgy chances if possible.

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500Nitro
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49016 - 03/02/06 02:23 AM


NitroX

Your are right about Scrub Bulls, they seem to cause more charges
than Buff.

Don't you love it when the animal is wounded and "looking"
for you !!!

500 Nitro

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allenday
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49032 - 03/02/06 04:08 AM

Over forty years ago, Elgin Gates and his PH played a game entitled "buffalo chicken" in which they allowed the bull to charge before letting him have it. That could be considered "stunt hunting", I suppose. Gates also killed all members of the Big Five with his 300 Weatherby, which would perhaps qualify as another stunt.

Modern versions of the "buffalo chicken" game allow the buffalo or hippo to "decide how he's going to die" . That could be considered stunt hunting as well!!

I have personally killed Cape buffalo and lion as dead as doornails, on the spot, with a 300 Win. Mag. and trivial 180 gr. bullets, which could be considered a stunt as well, but not in my estimate. On that particular safari, my 458 went gunnybags, and I simply didn't have another rifle to finish my hunt with.

To me, true stunt hunting might be defined as any sort of hunting that involves taking unnecessary risks and/or using non-regulation calibers for dangerous game. If you have to deal with a charge out of necessity, that's one thing, but to look for it is something else again......

AD

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DoubleD
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: allenday]
      #49041 - 03/02/06 05:22 AM

Where a double gunner would consider going after any game with anything other than a double rifle a stunt, an archer might consider it the ultimate hunting challenge to silently stalk and kill an animal undetected especially a dangerous animal.

Never hunted a Cape Buffalo. Probably never will. Sure would like to. I would prefer to use my 404 BJ Express bolt gun if I could and wouldn't consider it a stunt.

On the other hand hunting a Cape buffalo with a lever action 45/70 doesn't seem a good idea either. I don't think it would be on my list rifle caliber combination. I personally don't think it is powderful enough for the job. (based only on my reading and no first hand experience)

I one time stepped into a discussion here on this board where the guru's were chastizing the very thought of hunting Cape buffalo with a lever action 45/70. The gurus were deriding the concept as bad but none of them said why. Shame on me I asked why. I got mugged. How dare I question the guru's. Hell I only wanted to confirm my own feelings on the issue.

Now if some one with the ability to go after Buffalo, took a Marlin 45/70 just prove these guru's were realy geezers, well now that would be a stunt.

There is a fine line in the discussion and we need to be sure the basis for the discussion isn't elitism.


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JPK
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: DoubleD]
      #49047 - 03/02/06 07:37 AM

Every guy - just maybe a hyperbole - who takes a 45/70 lever rifle buff hunting is stunt hunting - and practicing "reverse elitism" - 'cause the few who actually do it come back with a "see I did it with my trusty 45/70, and didn't need one of those expensive traditional DG rifles, which we, THE ENLIGHTENED know, aren't up to the supernatural 45/70 performance anyway - didn't everyone read the Linebaugh penetration test bible - more penetration than a 458, more powerful than a locomotive" story.

If your'e stuck, as Allen Day was, with a busted buff gun and you use whatever is available, knowing it will do the job but..., you have no agenda, you're just making do. This is not a stunt hunt, just a field expedient solution to a problem.

A 375H&H may be a medium bore but it is legal and has a long history of being enough gun, made all the better with today's bullets. It has been used by a bunch of DG PH's as their stopper rifle, and according to various polls, it is the PH's choice for a knock about personal rifle, to be used for "whatever comes along" when DG aren't speciffically targeted. This covers alot of ground, IMO, since lots of time in the bush equals more opportunities for trouble and these experienced guys still chose it. Reading the AfricanHunter website article about the low success of non guided hunters stopping very close elephants, really no success, gives me pause to wanting to use it in the theoretical hunt elephants alone scenario though.(BTW, according to the article, it wasn't the elephant being hunted that was the trouble but a companion elephant in almost, all? of the cases)

If a bow hunter wants the stalk and shot on the unknowing buff..., great, but the attitude that some talkers have, that when a "shaft laces the lungs"...the buff will "die just as fast if not faster than a buff shot with a DG rifle...'cause thats what treestand shot whitetails do and other magical powers of the (not so) silent stick and string and shaft"...just begs the question of whether the talker has seen a diagram of the buff's internals or seen his rib cage and shoulder bones. Not that it can't or shouldn't be done by an Africa experienced fellow with the right gear who has been around buff and seen the bush and shooting and stalking conditions, but the guy who has never seen a buff or the brush...thats a stunt hunt.

My thoughts part two,

JPK

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500Nitro
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: JPK]
      #49048 - 03/02/06 07:45 AM


JPK

" 'cause the few who actually do it come back with a "see I did it with my trusty 45/70, and
didn't need one of those expensive traditional DG rifles, which we, THE ENLIGHTENED
know, aren't up to the supernatural 45/70 performance anyway"

Well said - it is a bit like the "one shot kill" practice - all well and good but PH's I've
spoken to say some people fire a shot at a Buff etc over here and then look to see
what happens !!! In the mean time the Buff disapears at a rate of knots into the
distance unless hit by the PH.

Doing things "outside recommended guidelines" is just stupidity.
Though as you say, making do with whatever you have due to a stuff
up is different from planning to do it from the start.

500 Nitro

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JPK
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: 500Nitro]
      #49052 - 03/02/06 08:55 AM

500 Nitro,

Yes, one shot kills are just fine, but any halfway passing and lots of poor shots will be one shot kills too - its just a matter of time. I like Sureshot's tag line. "'Don't shoot him again, you hit him hard the first time', Precursor to a hunt gone bad!" or something close. If its standing, or lying with its head up or otherwise not stone dead, not putting in an extra round or two is just dumb, especcially if it is an effort to preserve the one shot kill status.

JPK

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: JPK]
      #49064 - 03/02/06 11:35 AM

So JPK, if it were a 50 Alaskan in the trusty 1895 Lever Gun, and it made the same FPE as the 375H&H would it still be a stunt hunt? Really any cartridge at and above 4000FPE is more than enough gun to kill anything. If you hit that magical number you have "enough gun". Unless you are a PH guiding hunts for DG, do you really need a arm cannon? If the animal charges the PH is going to dispatch it, per the 15 PH's I've talked to. They don't want to die anymore than anyone else. Most PH's will tell, they'd rather the client shoot what they're comfortable with than what they perceive as the "right" gun to use. Why? Because bullet placement is worth at least 2000 FPE no matter how you look at it. And if you don't have the right angle for the shot...DON'T TAKE IT.

You say the 375H&H is legal, what does that mean? Legal because of the ballistics or because its on a list of "legal" DG guns? I'm not being cheeky, I really don't know.

Now DG with a bow is tricky, it certainly is the way our cave dwelling relatives did it and they got away with it, sometimes. I'm sure ole' Ted N. would love it that way. But again, it really doesn't matter because the PH will always be there to back you up.

So I say hunt however you want, with whatever you want and the poo-pooer's can just stay home.

Just My 2 Cents,

Colorado

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You horde gold, I horde lead.

Edited by colorado (03/02/06 11:37 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: JPK]
      #49066 - 03/02/06 11:42 AM

I will agree here, shoot until it is dead or no shot is possible. Shoot and "look see", doesn't make sense to me.

Colorado

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49067 - 03/02/06 11:50 AM


I quote:
"Having an adequate firearm but you ask the PH to "back you up" shooting the beast at the same time as you do. Just in case."

Do people actually do this? Defeats the point I think.

Colorado

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49069 - 03/02/06 12:13 PM

I can see a need for the PH to shoot at the same time as the client, if the animal is on the edge, or border of an area that they might not be allowed to enter and follow up a wounded animal if it enters that area.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: DoubleD]
      #49074 - 03/02/06 01:27 PM

In reply to:

On the other hand hunting a Cape buffalo with a lever action 45/70 doesn't seem a good idea either. I don't think it would be on my list rifle caliber combination. I personally don't think it is powderful enough for the job. (based only on my reading and no first hand experience)

I one time stepped into a discussion here on this board where the guru's were chastizing the very thought of hunting Cape buffalo with a lever action 45/70. The gurus were deriding the concept as bad but none of them said why. Shame on me I asked why. I got mugged. How dare I question the guru's. Hell I only wanted to confirm my own feelings on the issue.

Now if some one with the ability to go after Buffalo, took a Marlin 45/70 just prove these guru's were realy geezers, well now that would be a stunt.



A cape buffalo can be killed quite adequately with a .45/70 LA.

I was in the HHK camp in Matetsi in 2002 and a fellow client who liked and used s lot bigger and better calibres/cartridges used his Marlin .45/70 Guide 'Gun' with 540 gr hard cast flat nosed projectiles to kill a cape buffalo without a lot of fuss. He also tested it out on an elephant skull (he had hunted one that week) and they felt the penetration was adequate so he planned to book another safari to try it on elephant.

So I have no doubt it does work for someone who knows what he is doing.

Was it a bit of a stunt? Probably.


***

Regarding bow hunting cape buffalo. I have no doubt it takes guts to do this, even with a PH in tow. Things happen unexpectedly in any hunt, and you need to get close to that buff with your sharp twig and stick and string.



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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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JPK
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: NitroX]
      #49089 - 03/02/06 03:52 PM

Colorado,

Energy means jack shit in and of itself. A light for calibre bullet can have the energy but not the weight (or constuction) for penetration. A fast projectile that doesn't get there is no hope and a slower but heavier one that doesn't have the velocity (or consrtuction) to get there can be equally useless. Energy doesn't kill, penetration kills. Bell didn't get away with his light calibre elephant hunting because of the energy of the rounds he was using but because of the high bullet weight, ie high sectional density, of the bullets in the rounds he was using.

Nitrox,

Maybe the 45/70 has the penetration for an elephant, and maybe not. Remember that the 458, in those midd'lin years, still at speeds several hunderd FPS in excess of what the 45/70 is remotely capable of, was thought to be issuficient for reliable use on elephant.

JPK

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allenday
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: JPK]
      #49112 - 04/02/06 12:05 AM

Your point about the 458 Win. Mag. is very hard to refute. African PHs, and even some clients, have been very critical of the 458 Win. Mag. over the years, mostly due to case-capacity issues, yet, it has the potential to outperform the 45/70 by a considerable margin.........

AD

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: allenday]
      #49116 - 04/02/06 12:57 AM

From what I've read, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the bad reputation given to the .458 was because when it was first introduced, the bullets loaded by the factory were too soft, and either over expanded or came apart. Either way, penetration was woefully inadequate. With the super premium bullets available today. that's no longer an issue, IMO. I also recall reading that the powder used when it first came out wasn't reliable, in that tha African heat caused pressure problems, and the older powder also had a tendency to clump together in the case causing inconsistant ignition.

With today's selection of bullets, and modern powders, I think the 458 is up to the task when it comes to DG, and wouldn't hesitate to use it.

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JPK
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Re: Definition of a DG Stunt Hunt [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #49121 - 04/02/06 02:21 AM

Mike416Rigby,

Hey, I agree! It is my choice and its has worked so far. My double rifle is chambered in 458 and before I bought it I did some research on the history of the bad rep the 458 earned early on. Some of the problem was with bullets but a huge problem was the powder choices and the compaction required to meet the original specs of 500 grs at 2130.

The clumping problem cropped up and then the ammo companies dropped the loads. At one point, the factory ammo was only doing 1900 or 1950fps. - Which is still well beyond what a lever action 45/70 can produce, even with today's powders - This is the period during which the 458 earned it bad reputation. Not enough velocity to make the 500grainers penetrate reliablely on elephant.

Modern powders have solved the 458's case capacity problems, for the most part, and it is possible to get 2150fps without problems. The Lott really benefits in my eyes from being able to deliver the same performance at lower pressure. I haven't and wouldn't hesitate taking a modern loaded 458 elephant hunting.

Since my 458 is a double rifle, I am stuck with the performance of the load it was regulated with. I'm shooting 500 grain Woodleighs at 2090fps and performance has been all you could ask for. My rifle has 26" barrels. The Federal 458 loads are listed as 2090fps from a 24" barrel and several fellows who have cronographed them report they are right there +/- a few fps. Hornaday has a heavy mag loading advertised at 2260 I believe.

JPK

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