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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Handguns

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
I need a handgun....a bloody big one!
      #4805 - 06/11/03 03:39 PM

While filming for a new video in Queenslands top end earlier this year I became involved in yet another (for me) unarmed altercation with a dangerous animal.
I find it too difficult to carry a longarm while filming and this is not the first time I've thought about trying to obtain a licence which would allow me to carry a handgun for filming situations in remote areas.
I'm not up to date at all regarding the new handgun laws here in Queensland.
Any ideas?


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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #4826 - 07/11/03 09:00 AM

Sorry for the rather vague question (Any ideas) at the end of my previous post but I had to finish in a hurry to attend to something else.

What I'd like to know is have the new laws restricted the use or ownership of large caliber handguns?

What handgun cartridge and bullet would you suggest that is powerfull enough to provide good penetration on large animals like scrub bulls with a chest shot, yet still be portable enough that I'm going to have it with me when/if needed?

Do you think I have any chance of obtaining a licence for this type of handgun ownership?
TIA


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HiWall
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #4829 - 07/11/03 09:59 AM

What we have at the moment is a calibre restriction of .38 maximum so in reality .357 Mag is the most powerful we can own providing we shoot competition and fulfill all the minimum shoot requirements and other balderdash that our Govt. tells us too.

The only options you have to own a larger calibre handgun is to compete in either Western Action/Cowboy/Single Action events (whatever your Pistol Club calls it)
OR
Handgun Metallic Silhouette competition.

To do this you need to have your Concealable Licence endorsed by the Firearms Registry. This requires a letter from your club stating that you compete in either of the above and that you will use the gun for competition. It is free and I had mine back 10 days after I sent the application. It requires a Form 4 (Change of Particulars) which is available from any Police Station. Fill them out, post and the endorsed Licence is returned. Easy!!

This will allow you to purchase up to a maximum calibre of .45 so the .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, 454 Cassull are available for Silhouette shooters.

There is no provision for hunting/carrying a handgun so you would be breaking the law big time by using one in the bush unless you can organise something on a Primary Producer licence.

The bottom line is that handguns can be at locked in a safe at your home or if out of the safe it must be in your direct control, in transit between home and range or at the range. Anywhere else you are asking for trouble.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you are a member of a Pistol Club with no affiliates you are restricted to use on that range only and direct travel to and from. Membership of SSAA or other bodies enables you to travel to, and shoot at a variety of ranges and basically means that providing you are travelling to compete it is possible to take your handguns with you (without a requirement to return to your home after the shoot) providing safe storage requirements are met in your vehicle. It is essential that you have your attendance record properly completed at the various clubs you compete at while on your trip.

Several manufacturers produce fine revolvers in .454 Cassull, Freedom Arms (expensive), Ruger & Taurus are all available here and it is possible to shoot .45 Colt through them for cheaper and less recoil practice, much the same as the .44Special/.44Mag. There is also the BFR Biggest Finest Revolver) .45/70 revolver (also expensive). A 5 shot single action job which would make a great companion to a Marlin Guide gun.

SSAA clubs have Handgun Silhouette ranges in most parts of Australia and their indoor ranges at Southport and Ipswich both conduct single action competitions.

Hope this helps mate, don't forget to read between the lines.

The only other option I can see is a direct request to the Firearms Registry for some form of special category to be added to your licence and I think that would be problematic - no provision in the weapons act for any form of self defence, animal or human.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: HiWall]
      #4831 - 07/11/03 11:25 AM

HiWalll

Great information you posted.

Can you tell me, does IPSC also have an exemption to use larger than .38 calibres? I believe they were having problems not being an "Olympic" or C/W Games sport.

4seventy

You may be interested in an article in "African Hunter" magazine.

They conducted tests on various pistols and calibres to see which would be the best "stopping" calibre a PH should use.

Interesting they found the .357 Magnum was the ideal calibre.

This is based on their criteria which was maximum penetration. They were not looking for a hunting pistol but one to be used on nasty critters in an emergency which may have to penetrate lots of bone, muscle and tissue. Basically on large game it has to be a brain shot. So penetration was the key requirement. For hunting a 44 Mag would probably be better ie if going for chest shots - with a largerwound channel.

I thought at the time the fact no hunting provision for pistols used by PHs was put into the firearms legislation was idiotic and wrote a submission but you know how far that got. The problem is it isn't a big industry and is probably looked at with some distate by the greenies that infest our government and wildlife "management" departments.

An incident with "Big Five" and I when I hunted with him in South Africa last year. Big Five uses a 9 mm Beretta. I wounded a bushbuck and it managed to get into very thiick bush between the wheat crops (where it had been feeding) and a river. Bushbuck have a fierce reputation for charging when wounded and some people claim they should be no.6 on the Big Five list. Now to enter this thick bush we had to crawl through a tunnel maybe less than 3 feet high and wide for 8 metres or more. No swinging on rifles in that space. If a wounded animal decides to have a go at you there no chance. The trackers eyes were certainly showing their whites and the bushbuck barked at us close by. Except for a pistol and Big Five wisely brought his out - just in case. The animal was finished off with my .375. Its spine had been damaged above the chest but it could still hobble. Yet it moved a good 100 metres away from where it was initially shot.

If farmers in Qld can still get a licence for pistols that's the way to try to get legal access. You will probably be limited to the properties named on the form. You could list the lot of course. Perhaps use something along the lines of a professional roo and pig shooter but add the PH work as well.


PS Sorry mate I missed your second post. The African Hunter article was obviously dealing with game and to and including cape buffalo and elephant. So I guess scrub bulls would be relevant in the range . I will try to find the article if you want it. Remind if I forget

Tell us about the incident. If you were filming and the scrub bull got close enough for you to feel the need for a pistol it must have got interesting

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (07/11/03 11:34 AM)


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HiWall
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Loc: Brisbane, Qld
Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: NitroX]
      #4833 - 07/11/03 12:21 PM

IPSC tried desperately to get an exemption but were refused. .38 Super is one of the few calibres that will make Major now, along with wildcats that have been developed on the .40S&W, 10mmAuto and .45ACP cases necked down to .38
Providing barrel length is legal many have been converting their race guns with switch barrels (in guns which are suitable to run modified magazines). Crazy thing is that it is not legal to crimp the sides of double stack mags and have them passed as 10 rounders, but the 10 round magazines available from gun shops and legal that suit the double stack guns appear to be standard mags with a crimp to reduce them to single stack. Guess the Govt. just wanted us to spend some more of our money.

The Qld Primary Producer licences only apply to the land the holder owns. He can't take the gun off the property. Usually the PP licence only applies to Cat C. Semi Auto rifles/shotguns & pump shotguns. Not sure about Cat H.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: HiWall]
      #4838 - 08/11/03 12:58 AM

I have a primary producers licence and do not own the land for which it is given. My licence also covers hunting/target shooting etc so they can be moved beyond the property.

Purpose of use 7. - is other use approved by the regustrar. There is a good case for pistols to be approved for use by a Professional Hunter but whether any reason or sense would enter into it is a moot point.

Primary producers used to have the right to carry a pistol on licence for stock destruction but I believe that went with the latest totalitarian laws.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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HiWall
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: NitroX]
      #4839 - 08/11/03 05:42 AM

I really appreciate uniform gun laws, It makes understanding what has happened to us so much easier.

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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: HiWall]
      #4866 - 10/11/03 12:09 PM

HiWall & NitroX
Wow! Top stuff from you fellas!
That's given me plenty to think about.
Thanks heaps!



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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: NitroX]
      #4873 - 10/11/03 04:55 PM

NitroX
Regarding the need for a bloody big handgun.....
I was filming some pig hunting with dogs in the gulf region of Queenslands top end, and we had two seperate incidents with scrub bulls.
Both incidents were a result of dogs harrassing the bulls and we were lucky that no one was injured.
I'm not sure that the dogs owners would want the entire story on the net so maybe I'll hang back a bit with the details.
Perhaps it would make a good campfire yarn for me to tell at the next Big Bore Pig Hunt if you decide to have another?


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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #5149 - 24/11/03 11:42 AM

I've carried a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt with some bloody hot handloads for brown bear protection while working in the bush in Alaska. I've also carried the same chambered for the 500 Linebaugh. For some reason, I feel a little more comfortable with the Linebaugh chambering. Something to look into if you can use a .510 handgun chambering. If not, the 500 S&W round might work for you or the 475 Linebaugh. The problem with 500 S&W is the handgun is huge owing to the 1.6" cartridge length. The Linebaugh rounds will fit any Ruger Redhawk or Blackhawk type frame. The cylinder should be replaced with a 5 shot cylinder though.

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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: DPhillips]
      #5173 - 25/11/03 12:29 PM

They sound like awesome calibres and would surely do the job.
I do need to try and keep the overall size of the handgun down or else I most likely won't have it with me when /if I need it.
It needs to be small and light enough that I wear the thing all the time I'm out hunting.
I'm putting the cart before the horse here because first of all I need to apply for the licence and it seems unlikely that they will grant me one.
I did enquire about a permit once before (about 1995) and they did agree that I had a "genuine need", but they also said that there would only be a slim chance that a licence for my needs would be granted.
I will make some enquiries and keep you posted.


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DPhillips
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #5175 - 25/11/03 12:38 PM

I wear my 5" barreled Redhawk while fishing and backpacking through the mountains a lot in the summers. A good holster will make it ride better and less noticeable/bothersome. For my size (about 5'10" 160 lbs), the Redhawk is the limit of what I want to carry. Its not too bad.

A Blackhawk is much easier to pack around all day and seems to be there are better riding holsters made for the Blackhawk than there are for the Redhawk. A Blackhawk chambered in 500 Linebaugh is an excellent trail companion. The Freedom Arms 475 Linebaugh is a pleasure also.

A top quality holster makes a huge difference when wearing a full size revolver while on the trail. Galco, Freedom Arms and a few others are what I would look for. Stay away from anything flimsy or poorly constructed, they will make the revolver feel like it weighs a ton at the end of the day.


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Rick_R
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #5996 - 22/12/03 01:33 AM

4Seventy,
As handgun hunting or self defense with one is Verboten in your neck of the woods, you might want to look at the Marlin Guide Gun. I really like mine, so do my kids as they wouldn't let me use it for deer season, they took it!

I've even seen a back scabbard for it that is really just a big holster. At six and a half pounds and holding five rounds of .45-70 or .450 Marlin it's a pretty potent little gun. Add a larger front sight and a ghost ring rear and you should be good to go on most critters.

hth

Rick


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NONE
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Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #6596 - 06/01/04 04:33 PM

The worlds best DG back up IMO is one of Gary Reeder's fine custom made revolvers. They are the double rifle of the hand gunner sector.
If you require compact and hard hitting and do not mine the recoil associated with the other two requirements you can not beat the Ultimate back up 2. I have and love this little beauty and its the best in the compact big boar market in either .500 or .475 Limbaugh. They also produce the Southern Comfort in a 4" in 454 Casull.

Gary is a class act in the market and can custom build the piece to your specs and I assure you nothing asked of him is out of the question.
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/revolvers/ultimate_backup2.htm

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/revolvers/southern_comfort.htm


James F. Nixon III


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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: NONE]
      #6603 - 07/01/04 12:28 AM

I really think this thread demonstrates the true value of hunting/shooting forums like we have here.
My knowledge and experience regarding hand guns and their usefullness in the field is almost nill, but thanks to those who have posted their advice, I now have a lot to work on.
Thanks heaps fellas, I really do appreeciate all the valuable info.

NitroX,
Hell I wish we had a spellchecker!
I'm pretty good at finding a pig but totally useless at finding a bloody dick-shon-erry!!!


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DeishuAK
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: 4seventy]
      #23506 - 05/01/05 06:38 AM

Of interest to all of us who own and love big bore handguns should be Ruger's new Super Redhawk "Alaskan" with 2" barrel in 454 Casull and 480 Ruger. I own 3 Super Redhawks, 44 Mag, 454 Casull, and 480 Ruger, all with 7.5 inch barrel. Super tough guns. This past spring I stalked and took a black bear at 38 paces with my 454 Casull loaded with 260 grain Winchester Partitions. A devastating instant kill (heart/lung). Here in SE AK it's wise to carry the largest calibers one can handle with proficiency due to our dense population of coastal brownies. Thankfully we still have the freedom to arm and protect ourselves with the necessary metal here in the US, a right everyone of us here cherishes deeply.

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Marrakai
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: DeishuAK]
      #23542 - 06/01/05 12:18 AM

Wow, this thread has certainly risen from the dead!

4seventy:
If moving to Alaska is likely to be too expensive or 'climatically challenging', you could contemplate moving to the Northern Territory! If your business can demonstrate a genuine need, it can apply for an 'occupational' H-class licence, then you can register handguns for carriage against feral stock and dangerous wildlife while working in the field. Handguns are routinely carried by many professional fishermen, pastoralists, park rangers, surveyors, and hunting guides in remote parts of the NT, but as I have said before, the NT Firearms Registry has a definite 'no dickheads' policy when assessing applications for H-class licences (which we're all quite pleased to see, by the way!).

For the info of others, the H-class restriction to .38-calibre in Australia applies to certain disciplines of competitive target shooting only, and has no affect whatsoever on the 'occupational' use of handguns.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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bonanza
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: DeishuAK]
      #23546 - 06/01/05 01:08 AM

I recently bought a Kimber MkII Stainless in 45ACP. This is the only pistol I have ever been able to shot accurately. Is the 45ACP (with correct ammo, P+) suitable as a backup gun?


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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475Guy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: bonanza]
      #23556 - 06/01/05 10:42 AM

bonanza

If it's a backup for clawed critters, I'd use a JSP or at least a hard cast bullet from 200 to 220 grs. with the appropriate amount of Unique. I've used an old 240 gr cast swc in the long past and it went through several pigs and a 250# black bear. Whatever factory load out there usually is just JHP's and I'd stay away from hollowpoints for hunting.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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4seventy
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: Marrakai]
      #23557 - 06/01/05 10:44 AM

In reply to:

4seventy:
If moving to Alaska is likely to be too expensive or 'climatically challenging', you could contemplate moving to the Northern Territory!




Marrakai,
What a bloody great idea!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: Marrakai]
      #23566 - 06/01/05 02:08 PM

In reply to:

the NT Firearms Registry has a definite 'no dickheads' policy when assessing applications for H-class licences




Damn, that rules me out!




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Taos
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Loc: Nevada, U.S.A.
Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: NitroX]
      #38847 - 07/10/05 01:58 PM

If you can get the permits needed get a ruger single action in .45 colt Get a 300 gr mold and cast up some hard bullets. Put a bit of ww-296 under them and I gauruntee that will get the attention on a head shot of any bull at close range. Those heavy .45 bullets worked wonders for me on our larger critters over here. And the long bullets are wonderfully accurate too. Pretty stout recoil for your end too though.

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iqbal
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: Taos]
      #39039 - 12/10/05 12:54 AM

What about the TC Contender,a combination of hand gun and rifle,i.e. I believe you can fire a 7mm.mag.with this weapon.I have never even seen one but heard a lot about it.Just imagine having a hand gun firing rifle bullets,the recoil must be horrific.

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Bigfive
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Re: I need a handgun....a bloody big one! [Re: iqbal]
      #39144 - 14/10/05 06:33 PM

I don't know about all your laws but if you wan't something with a good smack go for the 454 Casull!!!!!!!!

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa


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tinker
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The half inch smith is a good one... [Re: 4seventy]
      #39344 - 20/10/05 01:40 PM

For what it's all worth, the .500 Smith & Wesson is actually a really nice round.

It is capable of seriously substantial terminal energies *and* it's a really sweet shooting gun with the lighter loads. Set up in the proprietary X frame, with the tensioned barrel and the unique crane lockup, it's also quite accurate.

I'd been eyeing one of the ten inch barreled PC Hunter models at the recent ammo shack, my first impression of it (for months, really) was that it was just silly.
With the perspective that it's a very light and compact high power big bore hunting repeating rifle system, it starts to look more interesting.
I've shot mine quite a bit now, and have set up with some very accurate handloads for it with gascheck cast bullets that put everything in the ass of a beer can at a hundred yards. They do that with remarkable retained energy at that range too, and with those loads the revolver is a very capable threat against deer and pigs out here on the west coast.
With a simple swing of the cylinder the gun can be set up to whack the snot out of the biggest game out here in North America.
I don't treat mine like a sweet handling light holster woods gun, I have those and like them for what they are. I got the 500 mag -really more than anything- for kicks and giggles, and all the while see the thing in a unique light as a compact repeater that I can use on anything with four legs here in my end of the world. I sling carry mine on a nice and tidy cobra pattern short sling. It nestles well at my side in that fashion. I'd have no problem with one of the shorter barreled X frame guns in proper leather on my belt though and have even though of getting a second more compact 500.


Looking at the chronograph times from shorter barreled guns of the same maker, there are some very effective stopping rounds fit to run in the more compact guns that are still rather accurate -- with off the shelf factory ammo.
That's something to consider too.
All that and (at this point as the model has been de-bugged) it's a production factory gun at a 'reasonable' price compared to the full house custom guns or boutique single action revolvers like the BFR.


Just some perspective from someone who's shot a .500 Mag a fair bit and owns one, it's a good thing to consider if what you're looking for is a good working stopping pistol, the Smith will do it. With lighter loads it's useful in quite a range of capacities too.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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