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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mickey
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
intercepting Sears
      #47971 - 26/01/06 01:22 AM

How do intercepting sears work?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: mickey]
      #47982 - 26/01/06 03:27 AM

Mickey,

An intercepting sear is a second sear that is not normally engaged in its notch or bent on the hammer. This to keep the trigger pull light and clean as can be had with just the primary single sear. A DR equiped with them will have two intercepting sears. The intercepting sear for, say the right barrel, is disabled, by rotating out of the way, when the trigger for that barrel is pulled, allowing the hammer to drop home when the primary sear is moved out of its notch or bent by the movement of the trigger.

If the trigger is not pulled but the primary sear lets go, the intercepting sear which has a larger, deeper notch or bent, will catch the hammer, ie, intercept the hammer, before it can strike the pin.

The intercepting sear only works when the rifle has malfunctioned since the primary sear shouldn't let go without the trigget being pulled. On the other hand it allows a rifle equiped with them to have nice, light trigger pulls without risk of accidental discharge from mishandling or from doubling due to recoil.

Shotguns equiped with intercepting sears work the same way.

JPK

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48051 - 26/01/06 11:49 AM

So on a hammer gun/muzzleloader this is the first sear, the second sear is/would be the primary sear? My problem with the Kodiak 12 bore is that the left lock primary sear sheared under recoil and the secondary sear caught the hammer on the way down. I modified the primary sear to handle the extreme recoil and all is good now, 60+ 165 grn shots and no failures.

Colorado

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: mickey]
      #48054 - 26/01/06 12:13 PM

What everyone else said. But the reason for an intercepting sear is that it prevents "doubling" on a double rifle.

Unless you are an orthopedic surgeon, or married to one, intercepting sears are the way to go.

Not from experience, just from months of great advice from the folks here. Had I not listened to them, I would be hunting DG with a 120mm cannon on my arm. A great caliber, if you are willing to lose an arm.



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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Grizzly]
      #48058 - 26/01/06 12:21 PM

Interceptor sears are absolutely unnecessary. Unless you have a gun that doubles. And in that case they are indispensible.

As I have not had any gun double on me yet, I guess I don't need interceptor sears.

But if ordering a .577 or .600, I would want interceptor sears for sure.

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: 500grains]
      #48125 - 27/01/06 02:56 AM

No rifle should double because the second barrel's sear slips out of its notch or bent on recoil. If it does this then there isn't enough sear/hammer engagement and it needs repair.

Intercepting sears are merely a safety feature to prevent accidental discharge from rough handling, like dropping the rifle, and just in case the second barrel's sear does let go.

Doubling caused by inadvertently pulling the second trigger is not prevented by intercepting sears since pulling the trigger rotates the intercepting sear out of its position to catch the hammer.

I like them, and I like a bolted safety for the same reasons. In conjuction they render a traditional double safer than a Kreighoff since the Kreighoff cocking slide can, in theory, be moved forward unintentionally. Any suspicion of DG and the bolt can be moved, and it doesn't take much to move it - so long as you remember it - in the heat of an emergency either.

They are by no means essential to the safe use of a double rifle though, since you shouldn't be tossing any gun around and Rule 1 in gun handling requires you to know where your barrels are pointed anyway.

Hollowell's site has a photo of the sear and intercepting sear best seen on the bar action sidelock photo in its definitions section.

JPK

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500grains
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48138 - 27/01/06 03:54 AM

I see what you mean about rough handling. Although I have not dropped a double (yet), I once dropped a S&W M37 and it hit the ground so hard that the hammer bent. But no AD!

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: 500grains]
      #48141 - 27/01/06 04:13 AM

500 Grains,

I gotta ask - was the hammer cocked?

JPK

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500grains
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48146 - 27/01/06 04:54 AM

No, the hammer was in the down position.

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: 500grains]
      #48226 - 27/01/06 03:18 PM

Didn't the Brits put intercepting sears on all their hammerless double guns after they phased hammerguns out? They seemed to feel that theyw ere neccessary even on 2" 12 bore shotguns for some reason...

Advance apologies if this is a silly post from a definite amateur

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #48237 - 27/01/06 04:06 PM

I think they are the mark of a better grade of rifle. Whether they are needed is superficial to the fact that they are there.

Like spoke wheels on an XKE

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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armbar
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: mickey]
      #48255 - 27/01/06 07:30 PM

OK, so how does one determine if a DR has intercepting sears or not? Armbar

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: intercepting Sears [Re: armbar]
      #48256 - 27/01/06 09:59 PM

Open the gun and listen for a 'click' coming from the locks before the gun is fully open. Watching the triggers as you open the gun might show this too. Otherwise, pull the locks off and have a look.

The only doubles I have with intercepting sears are hammer-guns, presuming it is the same for hammerless.

A couple of mine have intercepting safeties, different mechanism altogether but same function. No second 'click' with intercepting safeties.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Marrakai]
      #48277 - 28/01/06 02:31 AM

Marraki,

What is an intercepting safety? Is this the same as what we call stalking safeties on hammer guns? A slide that would prevent a hammer from falling - often on the muzzle side of the hammer but sometimes a slide to the rear of the hammer which also prevents the hammer from falling.

Armbar,

On a sidelock there is no externally visible sign. On a boxlock there is - often, alway, sometimes? - an extra screw to the rear of the fences.

Might want to look at www.hallowell.com . They have a photo of a bar action sidelock with intercepting sears that you can see (unlike their photo of a back action lock where they aren't so obvious) and I think a photo of the extra screw location and a written description of them as well in the definitions section.

Mickey,

That would be E Type!

Mehul,

Mickey is right, they are typically only present on higher grade boxlocks and sidelocks. But many higher grade boxlocks don't have them.

JPK

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48278 - 28/01/06 02:52 AM

500 Grains,

Did that revolver have a transfer bar like the newer ones or was the firing pin integral to the hammer?

JPK

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500grains
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48283 - 28/01/06 03:49 AM

JPK

The S&W has a firing pin integral to the hammer. I would say the gun was made in the early 1970's.

Just recently the single action function of the gun quit working. For some reason the hammer will not stay in the cocked position. But it still works fine in double action mode.

Now don't try to buy it off me, although at this point it may be considered a unique collectible piece.

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Marrakai
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48320 - 28/01/06 11:28 AM

JPK:
In reply to:

What is an intercepting safety?


I'll pull a lock off the Scott sidelock in my safe and photograph it shortly. Its a separate bar that engages some part of the tumbler before it can fall all the way. It is lifted clear with the sear when the trigger is pulled, but will 'catch' the tumbler if the sear breaks without pulling the trigger.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Marrakai
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Marrakai]
      #48321 - 28/01/06 12:39 PM

OK, here's an example of an intercepting safety. It is the bar lying across the top of the lockwork. At the same time as the trigger lifts the sear out of engagement with the bent in the tumbler, it lifts the intercepting safety bar clear of the lug on the tumbler body. I hope this is clear enough from the photo.



Sorry for posting such a scruffy lock, I don't own this gun (yet!) so haven't cleaned it up or polished anything . It was simply the easiest gun to pull the locks off!

Also, just tested the Scott and the intercepting safeties can be heard clicking into position just before full cock.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Marrakai]
      #48327 - 28/01/06 02:23 PM

Marraki,

I see your photo and I'm wondering if the safety sear will allow the hammer, aka tumbler, to fall if you pull the trigger after the safety sear has done its job?

Its in a different position than an intercepting sear, but I wonder if they are not functionally the same?

JPK

Edit: I see the two part "shoe" or whatever is the correct name to the lever (here two levers) where the trigger engages but no "leg" to the safety sear.

Edited by JPK (28/01/06 02:26 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48328 - 28/01/06 02:50 PM

Perhaps this shows it better.



The glossary in Mills & Barnes ('Amateur Gunsmithing') calls this an 'intercepting sear', so what are we really talking about here? A quick internet search shows liberal use of the term "intercepting safety sears", so they are the same thing? In that case, JPK, the above is a good illustration of an 'intercepting safety sear'!


BTW, here's a photo of the Purdey illustrated in Mills & Barnes:



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (28/01/06 03:25 PM)

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JPK
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Marrakai]
      #48437 - 29/01/06 02:30 PM

Marraki,

With the larger photo I can see the conection between the "shoe" or whatever it is properly called, that is engaged by the trigger and the second sear. This "intercepting safety" sear is in a different location than others I have seen but its practical aplication seems exactly the same.

the second photo also seems a bit different but not much. Without going back and looking I don't recall a partial thickness lever to the trigger "shoe" on a more modern pattern backlock. Good deep notch...er, bent, however.

Still the function is exactly the same. You should take a look at www.hallowellco.com in the definition section of a backlock and a barlock. I think you will come to the same conclusion.

"Two great peoples seperated by a common language", Churchill?

Best,

JPK

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mbogo375
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: armbar]
      #48446 - 29/01/06 03:49 PM

In reply to:

OK, so how does one determine if a DR has intercepting sears or not? Armbar



For a Webley boxlock you look for the screw as pictured in this photo.

Jim

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Marrakai
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: JPK]
      #48454 - 29/01/06 05:02 PM

JPK:
Quite right. The photo of a bar-action lock on the Hallowell site is more in line with what I had been calling an 'intercepting sear', being precisely a second sear in form and function.



I had always referred to the design pictured in my previous post as an 'intercepting safety', since it has no 'sear' as such and no actual 'bent' in the true sense of the definition. I now appreciate that they are both the same thing, ie 'intercepting safety sears', and that the variation in design is more likely related to whether the lock is back-actioned or bar-actioned, and the logistics of available space. The Purdey pictured earlier is a neat compromise on a bar-actioned gun.

Here to learn!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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4seventy
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: Marrakai]
      #48838 - 01/02/06 11:39 PM

An interesting thread.
Marrakai, IMO the photo showing a lock from your Scott is definately showing an Intercepting Sear.
An Intercepting Safety is more likely to only block the (accidental) tumblers fall when the safety catch is on "SAFE" where an intercepting sear can catch the tumbler when the safety catch is on or off.
There are many variations on this principal with some guns also having another system to block the tumbler fall if the top lever is not over far enough, and others which lock the intercepting sears in position so they cannot lift at all when the safety is on safe.

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4seventy
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Re: intercepting Sears [Re: 4seventy]
      #49070 - 03/02/06 12:27 PM

To add a little to the previos post.
For me an INTERCEPTING SEAR is a system where the tumbler has some type of projection which can be "caught" by a movable hook in the case of the main or trigger sear being accidently jarred and released say like when the hunter takes a fall or drops the rifle or whatever.
The "hook" remains in place ready to catch the tumbler regardless of whether the safety catch is on or off.
The hook is lifted clear by the first movement of the trigger pull during nomal operation/firing of the rifle.
Usually an intercepting sear is lifted clear of the tumbler to allow the tumbler to reach the striker by the trigger, NOT the safety catch.

On the other hand an INTERCEPTING SAFETY is a device which is placed in a position to deliberately block the fall of the tumbler/s in the event of the tumbler accidently falling.
This is like a solid block of steel which does not catch the tumbler but is standing solidly in the way.
This intercepting safety is removed from its position allowing the tumbler to fully impact the striker, by the first part of the trigger pull, or the safety catch being released, or sometimes by the top lever coming fully over as the gun is closed.

It's true though that in reality they are all a form of intercepting safety as they all "intercept" the tumbler fall in one way or another, and they all are an additional safety feature.

By the way, what does that extra screw shown in the Webley photo actually do.
I mean what lock internals require this extra screw?

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