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bulldog563
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Best PG Rifle?
      #47951 - 25/01/06 08:52 PM

OK so at the moment I am trying to clean out my safe and turn it into the perfect three rifle battery for Africa and elsewhere. I have a 500 Searcy on order and already have a scoped Model 70 in 375 that I am about to have some work done on to clean it up/make it reliable. This leaves me with a decision to make on the light rifle end. At the moment I have a 338 Win Mag Tikka. The Tikka is a great gun for the money but I bought it at a time when I was a little short on cash and couldn't afford something better. Now I am thinking about selling it and a couple of others to fund a light rifle for my battery.

So I guess my question is what do you guys think would be the ideal rifle/catridge combination? Most of my hunting will be done in Africa with the odd North America hunt thrown in. The rifle would basically cover anything from a Kudu/Eland on down to a duiker. I have a couple ideas but would like to hear what others thoughts are before I say anything. The battery so far has been pretty traditional with the 500 NE and the 375 so I would like to keep it that way if possible but it isn't a necessity. As far as price range goes I would like to be at less the 5K out the door with a quality scope included.

I know very little about gunsmithing so assume I would be relying on an experienced gunsmith to do any custom work.

Thank you all in advance for any input you may have.

--------------------
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Edited by bulldog563 (25/01/06 08:53 PM)

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Ndumo
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #47962 - 25/01/06 10:36 PM

I would settle for a quality .30-06, with controlled round feeding, wearing a quality scope, (Schmidt & bender or Swarovski variable.) Anything from a 7mm to a .338 will work, but as I recon you should stick to medium and smaller antilope with the light rifle (.30-06), and use it on eland and kudu only in emergency, I went lower than .338.
You have a .375, which IMO should be used on eland and kudu size animals. However, whatever caliber you decide on, learn to handle it well, and use only premium quality bullets.

--------------------
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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #47966 - 25/01/06 11:46 PM

For general plains game hunting, anything from .308 on up to .375 is difficult to beat. I've used the 300 Winchester and 300 Weatherby and 180 grain Swift A Frames, and also Barnes X bullets with no complaints. The last couple of years I've used my .375 with either Swift A Frames or Barnes XLCs. With the 300s, and 375, I've taken everything from Steenbok up to, and including animal the size of Eland. IMO, a premium, heavy for caliber bullet is more important than the caliber itself.

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Yochanan
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #47967 - 25/01/06 11:53 PM

bulldog563
Hard to say what is "ideal". However, a model 70 or mauser in 270, 7mm mag or 7X64 would be my choice as "small bore". 375H&H will do fine for all the larger North American animals and African game. "My" small bore would work well as goat, sheep, deer and pronghorns rifle in NA.

What type of action/brand of rifle(s) are you considering?

Cheers
/Johan


--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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303
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: Yochanan]
      #47968 - 26/01/06 12:48 AM

i would use some thing like a 303 british or the probly more sensible 300wetherby

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500grains
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: 303]
      #47977 - 26/01/06 02:24 AM

For me, a .375 is a PG rifle, so I think you already have it covered. Eland, wildebeest and zebra can be tough to put down.

But if you insist, then my recommendation would be a 9.3 x 62.

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bonanza
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48021 - 26/01/06 06:53 AM

I don't think you can beat the Rem. 7mm Mag. in a quality rifle. The 7mm ballistics are outstanding and would make a good gun for long range shooting.

--------------------


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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #48022 - 26/01/06 06:56 AM

Yeah but I also want the light rifle for use in NA on deer , antelope, sheep etc. The 375 seems a bit overkill...if there is such a thing. I was thinking maybe a 7X57, 300 H&H, 338 Win or a 9,3X62.

What do you guys think about the best rifle under 5K?

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Yochanan
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48023 - 26/01/06 07:03 AM

bulldog563
It's hard to say
What are your preferences, blued, stainless, walnut, synthetics, push feed or controlled?

Cheers
/Johan



--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Charles_Helm
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48024 - 26/01/06 07:12 AM

In reply to:

Yeah but I also want the light rifle for use in NA on deer , antelope, sheep etc. The 375 seems a bit overkill...if there is such a thing. I was thinking maybe a 7X57, 300 H&H, 338 Win or a 9,3X62.




For deer, antelope, and sheep I would not pick the .338, the .375 or the 9.3x62, although all could do the job at appropriate ranges. I would look to a standard or magnum in the .25-.30 bore range. There are lots of good choices. The .30-06 is very flexible and the .300 H&H is a classic. For larger plains game you could use your .375.

Caveat: I don't hunt antelope or sheep, and may take deer or hogs with anything up to a 9.3 or (next year?) a .458, so take this with a large shaker of salt.

--------------------
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Some pictures from Zimbabwe

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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: Yochanan]
      #48028 - 26/01/06 07:43 AM

I would want something blued and walnut CRF. Preferably a Mauser or its derivatives.

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Edited by bulldog563 (26/01/06 07:44 AM)

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EricD
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48029 - 26/01/06 07:52 AM

Bulldog,

I think there is no reason to try to invent the wheel over again when it comes to PG, and thus I would suggest any calibre from 375H&H down to 7x57 for you. Everything from Eland to Dikdik has been shot with these.

Whatever you choose, I'd think of something standard (not a wildcat) that can be most likely found in one of the local gunshops. In otherwords, a 375H&H, 30-06, 7x57 etc.

As for what type of rifle, for PG I think any action/gun you happen to be comfortable with. A Mauser wouldn't be a bad idea though!



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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: EricD]
      #48036 - 26/01/06 09:48 AM

Anyone have experience with Sabi Rifles?

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Yochanan
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48038 - 26/01/06 10:03 AM

bulldog563

I would call Stuart Satterlee and see what he could offer. His m-98 actions look really nice..

A 7mm mag, 7X64 Brenneke would be my choice

Cheers
/Johan


--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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SuperX
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48039 - 26/01/06 10:06 AM

Since you already have a M70 in 375 H&H, there's no question!.... I'd go with a M70 in 300 H&H.

Sounds like a perfect Light/Med pair ..... same bolt lift and stroke, same safety, etc.



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JoeR
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: SuperX]
      #48040 - 26/01/06 10:17 AM

Ditto the pre 64 in 300 H&H, loaded with 200 gr Woodleighs.

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JPeterson
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48050 - 26/01/06 11:37 AM

Dakota 76 it's what the model 70 should have been

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Scott
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: JPeterson]
      #48092 - 26/01/06 04:40 PM

I concur with the 300HH. It fits with the rest of battery as a classic. Besides there is not much you can not do with a 300HH compared to the other 30 cals.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: JoeR]
      #48093 - 26/01/06 04:41 PM

Damn they got in before me!

Yes my vote is for a .300 H&H Magnum in a Mauser 98 CRF of some description.

Perfectly classic and an ideal trio in .500 Nitro, .375 H&H and .300 H&H.



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John aka NitroX

...
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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #48095 - 26/01/06 04:49 PM

Is the 300 H&H a good longer range cartridge? Say like up to 350 meters? I have heard that with handloading it can easily better 300 Win Mag performance.

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luv2safari
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48101 - 26/01/06 05:44 PM

That Tikka 338 Win is about ideal for general plains game. Don't sell it...take it along as your PG gun. It does perfectly well on eland, wildebeest, kudu, ghemsbuck...

I know, I know...I just ruined a perfectly good rationalization to buy another rifle.

Sorry.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48122 - 27/01/06 02:43 AM

Old loyalties aside, if I were to reduce my battery down to three rifles, I'd keep these, and they're all custom jobs that Echols built for me that are stocked and balanced the same:

1) 270 Win., pre-64 Model 70 action, 22" Kreiger barrel, McMillan stock, Leupold 2.5-8X scope.

2) 338 Win. Mag., Model 70 Classic action, 24" Kreiger barrel, McMillan stock, Leupold 2.5-8X scope, with Duplex reticle and a single 400 yd. stadia wire from Premier Reticles.

3) 416 Rem. Mag., Model 70 Classic action, 24" Kreiger barrel, McMillan stock, Leupold 1.5-5X scope

AD

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JPK
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #48131 - 27/01/06 03:37 AM

I have other rifles but my core three rifle battery is:

30-06, with Leupold 2.5x8, with the same action - though different lengths - ,safety etc and stocked the same as my 375H&H
375H&H, with leupold 1.5x5
458 double rifle

The two bolts are customized Dakotas. The 375 has two scopes in Talley QD mounts in case of a scope failure in Africa or...It also has the Dakota 1/4 rib and barrel band NECG front sight which I think are excellent express sights. The 30-06 has no open sights.

I am looking for a scope for the 375H&H which is more suitable for leopard, lion, or hyhena hunting over bait predawn/postdusk. Had I the foresight, I would have one 1.5x5 Leupold in Talleys and the scope I'm looking for instead of the two 1.5x5 Leupolds.

With the two rifle practical limit for travel to Africa, the 375H&H and DR get the call since either rifle will do the job on DG.

JPK

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SuperX
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: luv2safari]
      #48137 - 27/01/06 03:53 AM

While I think the 300 is a perfect pairing for Bulldogs 375, I agree that the 338 is one SUPER cartridge.

If I were to leave for Africa today, for a mixed bag hunt, I’d take my 338 Win Mag, and
my 458 Win Mag (both pre-64 70’s).

Both have the same ergonomics (bolt manipulation/stroke and safety). Both classic American/Win rifles in Win Mag chamberings. And they’re just a step up (power wise) from the excellent 300/375 combo.

What I personally like about my choices:
458’s stopping abilities compared to the 375 if things get dicey.
338’s stopping abilities if a plans game hunt/outing unexpectedly turns into a dangerous game hunt (or just the need to defend oneself against DG).

The 338 is “the” most versatile cartridge in my book…. 180’s, 200’s, 210’s, 225’s, 250’s, 275’s, 300’s (and the 250 and 300 can be had in high SD solids!). Check out the SD’s for the premium 250’s and 300’s…… I don’t think penetration would be an issue on the big stuff….and with a lighter, high BC bullet, long range performance is fine (power and the ability to place bullets accurately).


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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: SuperX]
      #48148 - 27/01/06 05:08 AM

That's a smart tandem of rifles, no doubt about it.

I was looking over my 338 Win. Mag. and my 375 H&H the other day, and I'm amazed at how much lighter and handier the 338 is in camparison. With a good 250 gr. load at 2700 fps. or thereabouts, I don't think there's much the 338 won't get done in workman-like manner.

For my purposes, the 375 H&H is sort an iconic, neither-fish-nor-foul cartridge............

AD

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TerryR
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48156 - 27/01/06 05:56 AM

My 2 cents:

You are covered for a heavy and medium rifle, I'd look for something light, accurate, good for Deer sized game, and fun to shoot. If you reload or are traditional go with a 7X57, if not than a 7mm-08.


TerryR

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JPK
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #48159 - 27/01/06 06:04 AM

Yes, the 375H&H is neither fish nor fowl. That is actually why I like it as a second rifle choice.

It has a loopier trajectory, more recoil, and likely more weight than ideal for a PG rifle and it has less bullet diameter, bullet weight and momentum than ideal for a DG rifle. But it can do very well in both roles.

I wouldn't go to Africa only for plaingame, though its a fun part of the trip. Since the priority is DG then I want a DG capable and legal second rifle. And I'm a lefty so the PH's back up or loaner rifle isn't a good alternative.

Thinking of it, being a lefty is probably a primary reason for me to ensure that my second rifle is DG capable and legal. Also I have been in an area where the elephant were very agressive and I like generally the idea that the rifle I'm carrying is elephant capable.

JPK

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BFaucett
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48294 - 28/01/06 04:22 AM

In reply to:

.... I have a 500 Searcy on order and already have a scoped Model 70 in 375 that I am about to have some work done on to clean it up/make it reliable. .... At the moment I have a 338 Win Mag Tikka. ... Now I am thinking about selling it and a couple of others to fund a light rifle for my battery.



IMHO, I think a .30-06 or a .300 mag of some flavor (I like the .300 H&H) would be a perfect compliment to your .375 H&H and .500 NE battery.

I like the .30 caliber better than something smaller (like a 7mm) as you can use a 200 or 220 gr bullet if you should need to use it on something fairly large like an Eland. (Also, Woodleigh has just come out with a 240 gr .30 caliber bullet.) Plus, the .30 caliber, with lighter bullets, makes an excellent all-around rifle for North American deer hunting, etc.

.30-06, .300 H&H, .300 Win Mag, .300 Weatherby --- pick the one you like best and be happy. My choice would be the .30-06 or .300 H&H. A .300 H&H and a .375 H&H would be a classy pair!

And, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with letting your .338 WM sit between your .30 caliber and your .375 H&H in your battery if you decide to keep your .338 WM. I'm also a big fan of the .338 WM. But, if limited to 3 rifles, then for the light rifle I would pick a .30 caliber to go with your .375 H&H and .500 NE.

My two cents...
-Bob F.

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MagnumHunter
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: BFaucett]
      #48441 - 29/01/06 03:12 PM

On my first trip I carried a 300 Wby. Mag. and a 375 H&H and it seemed like a perfect battery for plains game. Second trip I took a 338 and 458 Win. Mags for some plains game and buffalo. I am really torn between the 300 and the 338. The 338 is my favorite caliber and I enjoy carrying it but the 300 is no slouch either. Its tough. One or the other.

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SuperX
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: MagnumHunter]
      #48478 - 30/01/06 01:59 AM

"..... I took a 338 and 458 Win. Mags for some plains game and buffalo. I am really torn between the 300 and the 338..... One or the other."

I agree, I have a '63 M70 in 300Win (pure stock, except for glass bedding/tuned trigger/3-9 Leupold) that will put 3 under an inch at 100yds all day long (with it's favorite handload). Perfect for typical north American hunting, but for African use, I think the extra power (bullet weight/penitration) of the 338 makes it a preferable light/med rifle. Now, that's not to say a hunter with a 300 made a poor choice, or is defenseless.

Edited by SuperX (30/01/06 02:11 AM)

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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: SuperX]
      #48489 - 30/01/06 02:58 AM

SuperX, that's a good way to put it!

I've taken a 300 Win. Mag. again and again as my preferred plainsgame rifle, and it's always served extremely well on everything from dik dik to eland, plus lion, leopard, etc. I can't fault its performance, and it's been my favorite all-around cartridge for the last 12 years.

But I've always wanted to take a 338 Win. Mag. to Africa, and I can't help but think that a premium 225 gr. or 250 gr. bullet is going to offer some advantages over the 300 Win. with the 180 gr. loads that I've always used in it.

So this year, I'm taking my 338 Winchester to Zimbabwe for plainsgame, etc. My rifle shoots 250 gr. Nosler Partitions extremely well, as well as 225 gr. Barnes Triple-Shocks, so I'll have to make a decision about which load to take in the next few months..........

AD

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markhyoung
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #48784 - 01/02/06 08:12 AM

bulldog

You mentioned a $5000 budget. With that much money to work with you can have a synthetic stocked rifle built with all the bells and whistles. As for caliber my choice would be for the 338WM. I've found it a very versatile caliber for NA and Africa. I personally like the 210 and 250 NP but as Allen suggested the 225 TSX maybe the way to go now.

Mark

--------------------
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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: markhyoung]
      #48789 - 01/02/06 11:23 AM

I have been considering a synthetic rifle but have always been a wood/blue guy. I just don't know if I can warm up to a synthetic rifle, although it would be good for AK and other such climates. Can you really build a sythetic rifle for that much less then a wood rifle?

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EricD
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48818 - 01/02/06 05:32 PM

Bulldog,

You can have a syntetic stocked rifle built for considerably less than a rifle with a decent wood stock. In fact I'm checking out having a synthetic stocked 7x64 Brenneke built at the moment myself.

Although I like the feel of wood in my hands better, for this rifle I see that a synthetic stock is the only way to go, as it will often be used in very wet conditions, and can be built lighter than with wood.

You could for example see what this guy has to offer on Prechtls M98 actions:
Roedale Precision

Erik

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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48835 - 01/02/06 11:19 PM

Bulldog, Hill Country Rifles offers a really good synthetic-stocked DG rifle at a reasonable price, and so does Empire Rifles:

www.hillcountryrifles.com

www.empirerifles.com

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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #48837 - 01/02/06 11:37 PM

I just can't understand how the most expensive synthetic rifle that Hill Country offers is 4500 while their DG rifle starts at 16000. Why such a price difference?

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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #48844 - 01/02/06 11:57 PM

Many of the better riflemakers have raised their prices significantly in the last few months. When D'Arcy Echols first started offering his synthetic-stocked 'Legend' in 1998 or 99, the price was $5,000. Now D'Arcy charges $12,000 for a 'Legend', and his walnut-stocked Classic goes for a whole lot more than that. I'm glad I hired D'Arcy to build some rifles early on! Gene Simillion has raised his prices as well.

Walnut-stocked rifles require a lot more labor and fine detail work, and that accounts for the price disparity, plus the cost of the walnut, stock furniture, etc.

Roger Biesen makes a great walnut-stocked rifle, and unless some radical changes have occured in his camp as well, the price is still reasonable. He has a very nice, full-feature 375 H&H on his website that is a very solid rifle for a very fair price at $6,000:

www.biesen.com

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SuperX
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Reged: 26/01/06
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #48872 - 02/02/06 04:27 AM

"Roger Biesen makes a great walnut-stocked rifle...... He has a very nice, full-feature 375 H&H on his website that is a very solid rifle for a very fair price at $6,000:

www.biesen.com "

yes, an excellent buy ! (in todays market)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #49056 - 03/02/06 09:21 AM

Bulldog563

I saw two actions, both Oberndorf Mausers made in 1933 at Mike Schrank's shop in Waukegan where Ddavid Norin is the custom gunsmith. Apparently, they build a number of guns for a leading dealer (whose name and reference I was given) who prefers rifles in classic calibres including some obsolete ones and who specialises in loading ammunition for them.

Illinois is a long way from Californis but these people are extremely friendly and the rifles in progress seemed incredibly beautiful. Now if only the wealthy imaginary uncle from the other thread were to come to life for me, I know where I would go

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bulldog563
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #49075 - 03/02/06 01:33 PM

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses but I have decided to trade my Tikka for a Sako AV in 338 Win. That should last me until I can afford a high quality wood stocked custom. The sythetics just don't do it for me. Again Thanks for the responses. As a side note I think this is a good discussion so if anyone wants to add some info or another quality custom rifle builder it will be of help to me in the future when I do make the leap.

Also, does anyone have experience with the Dakota Travellr?

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allenday
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #49114 - 04/02/06 12:38 AM

A good 338 Win. Mag. will take in a lot of hunting!

Here are a couple of other riflemakers to consider:

www.rifleactions.com

www.rbbigbores.com

www.bansnersrifle.com

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NE450No2
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Re: Best PG Rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #56515 - 06/05/06 12:59 PM

A 500 Nitro double and a 375 H&H is about perfect for Africa. After all 2 rifles is about the limit for most countries.

So I would get a 300 Mag. A 300 mag and a 375 would make a great pair for North America.

A 3 rifle battery of a 300 Mag, a 375 H&H and a 500 Nitro will cover all Big game hunting.

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