mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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Many posters feel that Doubles are only for Dangerous Game. Stoppers. Normal Game should be taken with a scoped bolt or even a single shot.
I am not sure but I would guess that more Double Rifles have been made in calibers .375 and under than over.
What has happened to all these lighter rifles? I know where a couple are, in my safe, but what of the others?
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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500Nitro
.450 member
Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Mickey
In my safe !!!
I think Holland was prolific in making smaller calibre doubles.
Winchester, Beretta et al made alot in the 9.3, 7mm etc.
Most of the English ones I know of ( 25+) are in the hands
of collectors / shooters.
500 Nitro
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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I have several hoarded! I love small bore DR'S.
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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375Brno
.333 member
Reged: 18/10/05
Posts: 354
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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So just to extend the discussion a little bit further what is the availability of small bore doubles in the secondhand market and what would you expect to pay for something like a 375. I know that can be a bit subjective so a range of values is OK.
375Fetish
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mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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You will pay a premium for a 375 Flanged. After that though the price goes down considerably but it is a strong market now.
A 360#2 is as good as a 375 Flanged and will be, maybe $5000 or more cheaper in a given model.
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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tinker
.416 member
Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
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I don't have much interest at all in going after the classic dangerous game animals with my double rifles.
I have an 8x60r double rifle coming, might actually get to see it this weekend, and it's an iron sighted fairly straight gripped pointy and elegant ejector rifle which seems to have been set up with driven game in mind.
If all checks out well with it and it's what it's said to be, I'll be keeping it and using it for four legged North American game.
I'll have about five grand in it.
--Tinker
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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--
"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40618
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Absolutely not.
I enjoyed using my .450 on pigs in the Territory. Because it is not shooting perfectly I was hesitant in using it on smaller targets and perhaps further away but it came through very well.
Later I used my 9.3x74R on various game and it was murder on pigs again. Blam blam blam, three very quick shots and three dead pigs. They were at close range, maybe 10 metres or less but running in every direction.
I think a stag will be the next target.
A scoped accurate double rifle is twice the gun a bolt action is!
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John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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iwantadouble
.300 member
Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
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The single most impressive kill on a running mule deer that I have witnessed was when I was 17 years old. (The incident was more than too much for an overly impressionable me, by the way.) Efficent doesn't even begin to discribe the kill. More like the hands of the gods all came down and slapped that deer to the dirt. The rifle is currently for sale on the net. Caliber is .475 #2.
Just because they were designed for big DG in mind, does not make them any less exceptional in use on smaller non-DG in my opinion.
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500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Seems like most guys getting into doubles start with a large bore and most own only a large bore, and that's a mistake. The mediums are much more useful and using one regularly makes the heavy rifle second nature.
There's nothing as pleasant to carry and shoot as a medium bore double built to a proper weight. I've used mine for feral hogs and whitetail to black bear and elk. With it's folding moon bead, it's the finest rifle for baited bear I've ever found.
Not long ago, small and medium bore British doubles were substantially cheaper than comparable large bores, but the prices are much closer now. The problem with some of these is weight. The .360 No. 2 is a fine cartridge, but finding one that weighs less than 10 1/4 lbs ain't easy. The .280 Flanged would be a nice caliber, but most of the doubles are 10 to 10.5 lbs, Curl's little Lancaster notwithstanding.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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Rusty
.333 member
Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
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I try to hunt with my double as much as I can.
Here are some pics of me and fellow DRSS members.
Hopefully we can get some other double rifle shooter to post their Non-Dangerous Game pics.
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Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS
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foxfire
.375 member
Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
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Rusty,
This is my first animal shot with my double, 7x65R it was a great hunt and I enjoyed carrying it.
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No good deed goes unpunished
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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400NE,
"Curl's little Lancaster" is a sweetheart, but petite she's not. She filled her belly on the pre-WW1 English gunmaker's attention, and as a result, weighs in at precisely 9.44 pounds on my digital scales.
But all must remember that a typical modern bolt gun with variable power scope weighs about the same. I'd rather carry the double in the Virginia woods.
By the way, I am actively gearing up to load for this lady. Last fall I ordered dies from Huntington. They arrived just before Christmas, but the sizer is just a little big and the sized cases will not quite chamber. I sent it back with a cerrosafe chamber cast (should have sent the chamber cast with the initial order - take heed). Should be in business in a month or two. I'll report to the forum.
Here's the not-so-petite Lancaster (which is not for sale).
C. Lancaster .280 Flanged from Curl's new website, still in development.
Best,
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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tinker
.416 member
Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
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Funny the note about large bore guns being the common choice for beginners...
The first double rifle I purchaced was my Mahillon sixteen bore pinfire SxS double rifle.
That gun pushes a bullet measuring .666" in diameter -- and it was built to take medium sized four legged game with antlers.
It's really a sweet shooting gun.
I've been thinking a lot about either building or having built a centerfire boxlock double for a similar load, just to be able to hunt with it keeping the Mahillon safe from the times when field carry might be hard on it.
As for sweet light and slender, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for my 8x60 BLE to arrive. It might show up late today!
--Tinker
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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--
"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Curl:
I guess my memory is playing tricks. I thought I remembered you saying it was 9 lbs, 1 ounce. Still, 9.4 is light for a .280 Flanged. I saw one not long ago that was 10.5. If I remember right, my .400/.360 is 8 lbs, 14 ounces. That's me with the little Evans in the second pic from the top in the group that Rusty posted above.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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clark7781
.375 member
Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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Curl:
Lovely little lady you have there. Do you have the history of her? Did it belong to Lord Fitzmaurice (name on the trunk), and if so, do you have any information about this gentleman?
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Clark
Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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Clark,
I haven't researched the provenance of my Lancaster. In fact, I don't know who has the Lancaster records. Maybe somebody can send me in the right direction. I too would like to know.
I suspect the case is original to the rifle. It's the correct period, the correct level of elegance for a boxlock(or lack thereof - canvas rather than oak & leather), and fits like a glove. The crisp, like-new condition of this rifle wouldn't be there if it hadn't spent the years wrapped in such protection. It's easy to differentiate a rifle that rode out the years in a cocoon from one that knocked around in closets and gun cabinets or stacked in a corner. This one has had the easy life.
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40618
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Man you "DRSS society" guys have some fun on your get togethers. Nice pics.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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500Nitro
.450 member
Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Curl
Tha last time I heard the guy who owned the Lancaster records
lives in Australia. I will ask and see if I can get a current contact details.
I will bring over Pictures of my Lancaster Sidelock 450/400
that now lives in the US - and has now shot a Lion, Buff and Elephant
in one morning by the new owner !!!
500 Nitro
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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In reply to:
"I haven't researched the provenance of my Lancaster. In fact, I don't know who has the Lancaster records. Maybe somebody can send me in the right direction. I too would like to know."
"I suspect the case is original to the rifle."
Uhhhh, Roscoe? Are you serious?
I am shocked, I say SHOCKED, that the owner of such an exceptional and rare example of British gunmaking art as "a hammerless 'B' Grade, body action (boxlock), non-fouling smooth oval bore, double-barrel non-ejector .280 rifle, No. 013487, built for Lord Charles FitzMaurice in 1912 by Charles Lancaster & Co." would NOT KNOW that said rifle was featured in a beautiful FULL PAGE color plate (captioned as preceeds in quotation) in a serious published work on the maker ("Atkin, Grant & Lang" by the late Don Masters; color plates between pages 100 and 101). I assume that the date and the customer's name came from the Lancaster records. Charles Lancaster & Co. was acquired by Grant & Lang in 1932 and a section of this book is devoted to them.
I didn't see mention of this specific rifle in the text, (I just thumbed it), but I instantly recognized your rifle in the color plates. I assumed you knew. Get yo butt to the bookstore boy.
The Lancaster records went to David Perkins of Charles Lancaster & Co., Ltd. The Firs, Bishopswood, Somerset TA20 3RU, in 1996. Tel/Fax 01460 234254.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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Curl:
You need to dig into this a bit. I think it's possible that this guy was the son of Lord Lansdowne, the famous British politician from the Victorian/Edwardian era, owner of Bowood House. This particular Lord Charles was KIA at Ypres in 1914. If you google it, there is a photo of a "Lord Charles FitzMaurice" in a group with King George V on a cruise to India in 1911.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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clark7781
.375 member
Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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I'm big into Genealogy and the name FitzMaurice caught my eye.
Here is what I could find:
Major Lord Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice1 (M)
b. 12 February 1874, d. 30 October 1914, #29047
Pedigree
Last Edited=7 Sep 2005
Major Lord Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice was born on 12 February 1874.3 He was the son of Sir Henry Charles Keith Petty-FitzMaurice, 5th Marquess of Lansdowne and Lady Maud Evelyn Hamilton.2 He married Lady Violet Mary Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, daughter of Gilbert John Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound, 4th Earl of Minto and Mary Caroline Grey, on 20 January 1909.4 He died on 30 October 1914 at age 40 in Ypres, Belgium, killed in action.2,5
Major Lord Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice was baptised with the name of Charles George Francis Petty-FitzMaurice.6 He was Aide-de-Camp to Field Marshal Earl Roberts between 1899 and 1900.3 He fought in the Boer War between 1899 and 1900.3 He held the office of Equerry in Ordinary between 1909 and 1910, to the Prince of Wales, later HM King George V.3 He was invested as a Member, Royal Victorian Order (M.V.O.).1 He held the office of Equerry between 1910 and 1914, to HM King George V.3 He lived in Aldie, Kinross-shire, Scotland.3 He lived in Meiklour, Perthshire, Scotland.3 He lived in Tullybeagles, Perthshire, Scotland.3 He gained the rank of Major in the service of the 1st Dragoons.2 On 1 January 1914 his name was legally changed to Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice.3
Children of Major Lord Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice and Lady Violet Mary Elliot-Murray-Kynynmound
Lady Mary Margaret Elizabeth Petty-FitzMaurice+ b. 6 Feb 1910, d. 4 Mar 2003
George John Charles Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice, 8th Marquess of Lansdowne+ b. 27 Nov 1912, d. 25 Aug 1999
Sources:
Citations
[S8] Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 106th edition, 2 volumes (Crans, Switzerland: Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 1999), volume 1, page 132. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 106th edition.
[S6] G.E. Cokayne; with Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed., 13 volumes in 14 (1910-1959; reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000), volume VII, page 443. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage.
[S37] Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition, 3 volumes (Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A.: Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 2003), volume 2, page 2240. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition.
[S2] Peter W. Hammond, editor, The Complete Peerage or a History of the House of Lords and All its Members From the Earliest Times, Volume XIV: Addenda & Corrigenda (Stroud, Gloucestershire, U.K.: Sutton Publishing, 1998), page 817. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage, Volume XIV.
[S1444] Letter from Jim FitzMaurice (22 Bell Road, Lower Hutt, New Zealand) to Darryl Lundy, 18 August 2005; unknown repository (unknown repository address).
[S2] Peter W. Hammond, The Complete Peerage, Volume XIV, page 424.
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Clark
Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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400NE,
My ignorance is pretty shocking; in fact, something of an embarrassment. Just be glad you don't have to endure my heavy burden!
Clark,
There's your answer. I was right. The case is original to the rifle.
I'm off to the internet, shopping for a book. Need to catch up on some reading. . . 
Thanks for the tip, 400NE.
Curl
P.S.
Wow! The two preceding posts appeared while I was fiddling around with this post and doing a search for the book. What great information, guys! Does this mean I get to meet the queen???????? 
Again, thanks,
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
Edited by CptCurl (21/01/06 06:13 AM)
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clark7781
.375 member
Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
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If both the person's date of death and date of manufacture of the rifle are correct, it is ashame that Lord FitzMaurice only had less than two years to enjoy it.
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Clark
Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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Yeah, and he spent part of that time in the trenches, finally getting his ass shot off! What a shame.
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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400NitroExpress
.400 member
Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
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I figured that might rattle your cage a little.
I bet it's the same guy. His father, Lord Lansdowne, was Governor-General of Canada and Viceroy of India. The family owned Bowood House. The W & C Scott "Bowood" model shotgun was named for it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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