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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47197 - 21/01/06 06:32 AM

I have a copy of the first edition of ATKIN, GRANT and LANG: A DETAILED HISTORY OF ENDRUING GUNMAKERS By Don Masters headed this way. Can't wait to see the pic and read the book.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: CptCurl]
      #47200 - 21/01/06 06:50 AM

It looks like a really nice book. Has some serial number tables in the back. The serial number of your gun is close to Denys Finch-Hatton's celebrated .475, built 1911.

Since this guy was killed two years after he got this rifle, that might explain what looks like pretty high condition. It's certainly gorgeous in the book picture.

Ypres was one of the bloodiest names of WWI. Since the town remained in the salient for much of the war, several battles were fought there.
-------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mickey]
      #47202 - 21/01/06 07:00 AM

In reply to:

Many posters feel that Doubles are only for Dangerous Game. Stoppers. Normal Game should be taken with a scoped bolt or even a single shot.

I am not sure but I would guess that more Double Rifles have been made in calibers .375 and under than over.

What has happened to all these lighter rifles? I know where a couple are, in my safe, but what of the others?



Double rifles are the best stoppers ever invented, but they are not limited to that purpose! I would say the double rifles chambered for 375H&H flanged, and under, are the most versatile double rifles ever made. I too, would suspect, that doubles chambered for 9.3X74R and smaller, have been made twenty times more than the very large bore doubles.

It is that we only see the big boys, for the most part, because the folks who use the smaller doubles rarely get in films, and in magazine articles. People in the USA, are not awash with experience with double rifles,of any kind, and the ones who are, are usually only intrested in the large bore stoppers. In Europe, double rifles are used by lots of people in the hunting fields, for things like deer, stagg, Boar and bear.

I would say my favorite chambering in a hunting double rifle for North America, is either a 375 flanged, or 9.3X74R, but the 8mm, 7mm, and the like are fine as well. The reason I like the 9.3, and 375 flanged chamberings is, because they are also very usefull in Africa, as well!

A perfect pair would be a 9.3X74R,with a illum scope, in QD mounts, and one of the 450 bores like a 450NE 3 1/4" to handle everything in the world. If you will have only one then my pick would be a 450/400NE 3" for everything.

I have a pair that I set up for a trip to Africa, which is a pair of Merkels,one chambered for 9.3X74R, and the other chambered for 470NE! However, I have small doubles and they are my daily shooters for the most part!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47214 - 21/01/06 08:34 AM

400NE,

I just went back to find the thread where we first discussed my .280 a year ago. AT THIS LINK. I remember you were interested in the Webley number on the forend loupe and how it related to the date of manufacture. At that time we were limited on the date because of the spread of dates in Nigel Brown's update of London Guns.

It now seems the date is pretty well established as 1912 by your astute observation in the Atkin, Grant & Lang book. How does that fit with your Webley research?

Again, thanks for all your interesting information and knowledge.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: clark7781]
      #47215 - 21/01/06 09:02 AM

Curl:

I remembered something.

Let's see. Major Lord Charles George Francis Mercer Nairne Petty-FitzMaurice. I'm not sure what the Brits would do with such a name in normal use. Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill used Winston S. Churchill. I think Lord Charles just used FitzMaurice instead of Petty-FitzMaurice. Lord Charles Petty-FitzMaurice was King George V's equerry 1910-1914. After his coronation in England in 1911, King George made a state visit to India for the purpose of being crowned Emperor of India in Delhi that December, the first British monarch to do so. The King's equerry would have accompanied him on such a state visit - an equerry is the king's personal assistant and that is what they do. Among the shipboard entourage photographed with King George enroute to India for that visit is a man styled "Lord Charles FitzMaurice". Has to be the same guy.

The featured entertainment for this trip was a tiger hunt in Nepal with the Maharaja of Nepal. There's a photo album from this hunt on the web (which is what I remembered). From other reading, I know that KGV was very fond of .280 Flanged doubles. Perhaps Lord Charles used one on this trip and decided to get one for himself when he got home?

Interesting that the photo album of the hunt seems to have come through the Maharaja of Ratlam. The little Evans mentioned earlier was originally shipped to him. I was googleing him when I found the link to the album.
----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: CptCurl]
      #47216 - 21/01/06 09:45 AM

Yes, I thought that number was later at the time. I've added quite a few Webley built guns to my database since then though. No. 13485 was an early post-war gun, ordered 1919. No. 13017 was an Army & Navy that I'm trying to get records on now. I'm expecting 1910. A delivery date of 1912 for Webley No. 13049 isn't going to be that far wrong. Remember that a boxlock could easily have been ordered for stock, which an entry in the day book usually won't show - you usually get just the sale date.

Based on what we know of it (Webley barreled up the action or their number would not be there), my hunch is that Webley finished it as well, but Lancaster could have. No way to tell for sure absent some detail in Lancaster's journal, as opposed to the day book. One thing for sure, Lancaster was using multiple trade makers for double rifles during this period. I've seen several from this period that were definitely not Webley products.
--------------------------------------------------------


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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mickey]
      #47221 - 21/01/06 10:56 AM

Mickey,

I just posted about the U/O Rizzini doubles from CDNN Investments in 30-06, 308 and 223. Those who cannot afford the big bores (your's truly very much included in this group) could look at these for their regular hunting.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #47224 - 21/01/06 11:22 AM

Mehul

I looked at them the 223 would make a fun Sage rat rifle.

Are you able to join us in Vegas? Perhaps a tasting of the NECocktail?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47236 - 21/01/06 02:20 PM

In reply to:

I will bring over Pictures of my Lancaster Sidelock 450/400
that now lives in the US - and has now shot a Lion, Buff and Elephant
in one morning by the new owner !!!



500Nitro

Would it be possible for the new owner of this fine double to be encouraged to join NitroExpress.com and tell us about his story? The story of hunting a buff, lion and elephant in one morning sounds like an amazing hunt! What a McNab!



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: NitroX]
      #47239 - 21/01/06 02:51 PM


I'll ask him.

He's not so much a new owner as he grabbed the gun off me
about 3 years ago - just had to have it he said.

He is a Doctor so not sure if he has time but will ask.

I'll also see if I still have his pictures and story from
the email.


500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47240 - 21/01/06 03:02 PM


Can someone POST some photos for me.

I have photos of the Lancaster and then the Lion and Elephant shot with it.

I re read what he said about the hunt - he Shot the Buff, Lion
and Elephant in one morning !!!

Not bad for someone who had never owned a Double before.

500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47244 - 21/01/06 03:20 PM

send them to me.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mickey]
      #47246 - 21/01/06 03:58 PM


The Photos being posted are of a Lancaster Sidelock Ejector 450 / 400 3 1/4",
Serial No 13141. It is a "Wrist Breaker" action.
Proofed 60gn Cordite, 400gn Bullet.

Address on barrel 99 Mount St, Berkeley Sqaure, London
26” / 66cm Barrels

Lever locked fore end with Full engraving
Full Length File Cut Rib
1 Standing & 1 Folding leaf sights, Ramp Mounted Bead Foresight
14 1/2” / 37cm, Old English Red Rubber Recoil Pad

The gun was not cased when I got it so I cased it and then my mate
in the US took a liking to it and wanted it so badly I relented.

He took the rifle to Africa in 2004 and shot a Lion, Buffalo and
Elephant in 3 Hours.

Enjoy.


500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47254 - 21/01/06 05:05 PM

*****see 'LANCASTER' ***** in Double Rifle Forum

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mickey]
      #47258 - 21/01/06 05:23 PM

Mickey,

Unfortunately I can't make it this time. I am buying a condo in Chicago and have to complete the formalities tomorrow. Hopefully, by the time we have the next get together, I'll have perfected the Nitro Express.

In any case, have a great time and cheers from my side!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #47260 - 21/01/06 05:26 PM

Too bad, I was looking forward to meeting you in person. Hopefully next time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47572 - 23/01/06 10:23 AM

400NE,

Can you direct me to the photo album you referred to which shows Lord Charles Fitzmaurice in the company of King George V? I haven't been able to turn it up through Google.

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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clark7781
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: CptCurl]
      #47591 - 23/01/06 12:24 PM

Curl:

Go about 3/4 the way down on this webpage:

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/royal_yachts.htm

The problem is, however, that it doesn't tell you specifically who in the photograph is Lord FitzMaurice. It just says "Others grouped around the King include Earl of Granard, Earl of Shaftesbury, Sir Charles Cust, Sir Derek Keppel, Lord Charles Fitzmaurice, Major Clive Wigram, Sir Charles Fitzwilliam, Captain Forbes Trefusis and Captain Godfrey Faussett."

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: clark7781]
      #47593 - 23/01/06 12:41 PM

Curl:

Sorry I'm not very good at cut and pasting. Clark posted the right link while I was looking for it again. HMS Medina - a P & O Liner requisitioned for use as a Royal Yacht. Lots of photos of the visit and the Durbar on the net.
----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47637 - 24/01/06 12:36 AM

Thanks, guys.

I spent some time yesterday evening doing some Google searches and learned a fair amount.

Coincidently, this revelation about my rifle comes at a particularly interesting time. I am currently reading The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham. As previously mentioned, Henry Charles Keith Fitzmaurice, 5th Marquess of Lansdowne, was the Secretary of War at that time. Now each reference to him in this book makes me think that I now own his son's double rifle.

Bowood House is still the private residence of the Marques of Lansdowne, but it is also open to the public for certain purposes. Here is it's interesting website.

Best regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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clark7781
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: CptCurl]
      #47640 - 24/01/06 12:48 AM

Curl:

I just love history, specifically genealogy. I have done extensive research into my own family's history and uncovered some facinating connections. If what I found is correct, I may well be related to English royalty (Like that means anything.)

I joke about my ancestry and say that I have HOARs in my family tree - my gggreatgrand father married a Sarah Jane Hoar, who was the son of James Hoar - he was a member of a "prominent Massachusetts" family and was the cousin of the Senator from MA, George Frisbie Hoar.

The story is interesting, as if my research is correct, James Hoar left New England after getting into "some type of trouble" with (possibly) pirates off the MA coast. He settled in Fayette County, Pennsylvania.

Well, Senator Hoar comissioned a well know genealogist (his name escapes me) to do a genealogical study of his family. He took his family line back to the Lisle line in England, and it is through that peerage, I believe, that connects my line to the royal houses of Europe.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

In checking out your Lord FitzMaurice, on one site it lists his descendants who are still prominent in England.

Facinating stuff...

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: clark7781]
      #47641 - 24/01/06 01:04 AM

Pakenham's book is a good read. I read it several years ago. Researching these rifles is a lot of fun.
----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: clark7781]
      #47643 - 24/01/06 01:39 AM

clark

I am related, through my Father's Mother, to a Count deLisle, a French Privateer during the American Revolution. He evidently sailed with John Paul Jones on some of his attacks on England. Is this the same Lisle family?

It is amazing where some of the trails go if you go far enough back.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: clark7781]
      #47669 - 24/01/06 05:22 AM

In reply to:

I joke about my ancestry and say that I have HOARs in my family tree - my gggreatgrand father married a Sarah Jane Hoar, who was the son of James Hoar - he was a member of a "prominent Massachusetts" family and was the cousin of the Senator from MA, George Frisbie Hoar.

The story is interesting, as if my research is correct, James Hoar left New England after getting into "some type of trouble" with (possibly) pirates off the MA coast. He settled in Fayette County, Pennsylvania.

Well, Senator Hoar comissioned a well know genealogist (his name escapes me) to do a genealogical study of his family. He took his family line back to the Lisle line in England, and it is through that peerage, I believe, that connects my line to the royal houses of Europe.



Any relation to Michael Hoare, the infamous "African" resident?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Doubles just for DG? [Re: mickey]
      #47672 - 24/01/06 05:25 AM

In reply to:

Poster: mickey
Subject: Re: Are Doubles just for DG?

clark

I am related, through my Father's Mother, to a Count deLisle, a French Privateer during the American Revolution. He evidently sailed with John Paul Jones on some of his attacks on England. Is this the same Lisle family?

It is amazing where some of the trails go if you go far enough back.



My ancestors were Germanic barbarians.

Or so I have been told.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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