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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Starter Doubles
      #47093 - 20/01/06 09:41 AM

What rifle would you recommend as a 'NEW' Double for a first time buyer? Pretend that the buyer knows nothing about and has never shot a sxs. Let's stick with the under $16,000.00 rifles and stick to brand new rifles.

What caliber?

Scope or not?

Stainless Steel or not?

Cocking Safety or not?





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47097 - 20/01/06 09:56 AM


What rifle would you recommend as a 'NEW' Double for a first time buyer?
Pretend that the buyer knows nothing about and has never shot a sxs.
Let's stick with the under $16,000.00 rifles and stick to brand new rifles.

What caliber? 7 x 65R, 9.3 x 74R if Non DG, 470 if DG

Scope or not? Yes, in QD Mounts

Stainless Steel or not? NO

Cocking Safety or not? NO

Searcy, Merkel, maybe Chapuis - based on my mates gun.

In O/U, Beretta Silver Sable or Gold Sable.

Just my HO.


500 Nitro

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47100 - 20/01/06 10:52 AM

500Nitro

Why not Stainless? Why not the cocking safety? I like the idea of the cocking safety in a break action single shot by the way.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #47101 - 20/01/06 10:54 AM

That just about sums it up. Can't think of anything better.

My HO.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47109 - 20/01/06 11:41 AM

I speak as if the new person buying the DR is American.

I would push them towards a Searcy. They are built here and are fitted for you. If there is a problem with the gun, you speak to the person who made it, not the manufactures representative.

Butch stands behind all of his rifles and if something goes wrong, he fixes it.

Caliber: .450-400 or .375

No scope.

Stainless? Sure

Cocking Safety: No



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47127 - 20/01/06 03:00 PM

What rifle would you recommend as a 'NEW' Double for a first time buyer? Pretend that the buyer knows nothing about and has never shot a sxs. Let's stick with the under $16,000.00 rifles and stick to brand new rifles.

What caliber?

I would recommend a 9.3x74R or a .470 (or .450, .416. 400 if they reload). A .375 flanged would also be nice but rarer.

Why? Most double rifle aspirants associate the double rifle with romance of dangerous game hunting in Africa or elsewhere. Big is better in these circumstances if they can cope with recoil.

The 9.3mm on the other hand really is quite a mild cartridge. A friend who does not like recoil tried mine out and was very happy. He said, I may now be able to buy a double rifle I can shoot.

It also is very versatile. It can be used to take larger game if necessar, but really shines where non-dangerous game double rifle hunting shines, running medium game in thick cover or forests. Such as the driven game drives of Europe. Moose hunting in Scandanavia. Boar hunts in Spain etc. Its growing popularity has been achieved by actual results.

I think a 7x65R makes a nice smaller medium bore DR too.


Scope or not?

In a DR up to .416, sure why not. As long it is in good QD mounts. A scope extends the shooting range of a DR extensively. Using open sights on my .450 I must limit my shots to closer range.


Stainless Steel or not?

No opinion.


Cocking Safety or not?

If the brand or make has one, I think if the shooter is used to it, it makes the DR far safer to carry in the field loaded. I am always extra careful with my DR when in the field because there are rounds IN the CHAMBER only protected by a convential safety. In a bolt action rounds can be 100% safe in a magazine and chambered quickly when necessary. In a DR unloaded chambers is an unloaded rifle. A good decocked DR is far safer.

JMO's.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47145 - 20/01/06 11:39 PM

Ideally a 9.3x74R or 450/400 with a scope. That would mean a Searcy or Chapuis.

For the simple minded - A merkel 470. It's "cheap", cheerful and you can buy the ammo on-line.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: bonanza]
      #47146 - 20/01/06 11:50 PM

I was lucky in the fact that my first double came with 3 sets of barrels 7x65R, 9.3x74R and 470. All 3 sets had detachable scope mounts. It is a Krieghoff so it has a cocking & decocking safety. Having only hunted with the 2 smaller calibers I would recommend them as a first time starter double in a minute.
The 7x65R and the 9.3X74R are as versital as you can get. It will cover anything but DG. They are a lot of fun to shoot. The cocking safety was easy to get used to and I seem to have no problem with it. I'm confident to hunt with my son using it and we all know how kids minds and safety issues can sometimes wander.
I believe from these forums and questions like these I made the best decision for my area, hunting expectations and ability.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47149 - 21/01/06 12:54 AM

I'd recommend a .450/.400 or a medium bore, say .303 up to .400/.360. No scope. Forget stainless. A cocking safety, ala Krieghoff, is never appropriate on a double rifle. I wouldn't recommend a new rifle to a first time buyer.
----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47154 - 21/01/06 01:38 AM

400Nitro

Why not a new rifle for a first timer? Wouldn't it be easier for them to pick a rifle that fit and they liked without worrying about the potential problems a used rifle might have?

What about starting off with a smaller caliber? A usable Deer or Elk rifle that will get the newbie used to Doubles without the recoil that a Big Bore has.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47158 - 21/01/06 01:49 AM

Mickey,
One reason I bought a used Krieghoff was that they were 2 hours away from my home. After speaking to them I bought a used double and brought it there. They restocked my double left handed and cut the LOP to fit me for a very modest charge.
Though we didn't change other standard stock dimensions
it fit me fine. This time around a used gun worked out very well.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47159 - 21/01/06 02:05 AM

In reply to:

I wouldn't recommend a new rifle to a first time buyer.



Not trying to stir up a shit storm or anything, but I too would like some more information on this statement. There is no doubt that 400NitroExpress knows more about DRs than most people, but for the layman, why is a new DR not a good choice?

I have seen on here the problems with buying an older DR - and we have heard many tales about people who know what they are doing taking a look at an older DR and finding a lot of problems with it. Most people, I think, (myself included) wouldn't know 80% of the things to look out for with older DRs.

A Searcy comes with a guarantee that if something goes wrong with it, it gets fixed. We know George stood by CFA's Holland when it blew a barrel, but how many other sellers of used older DRs would do the same?

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: clark7781]
      #47166 - 21/01/06 02:57 AM

Mick & Clark:

To me, the first one should be the best quality rifle the buyer can afford - and he should stretch it a little. As long as you don't short-cut it, you can get a LOT better quality for the money used, and you'll get more out of it when you want to trade. Any used rifle can have problems. Just yesterday, a friend heard back from J. J. that a double he had sent for evaluation had rifling print on the outside of the barrels - and back it went. Only an idiot buys one without a professional evaluation. Top quality DRs in good condition with proper ammunition and care have very few problems. I've been shooting one of my pre-war British rifles for 18 years, the other for 15, and have never had a repair. During that time, these have been my primary hunting rifles. In the last few months, I've seen two new rifles that were already off-face. With double rifles, build quality is much more important than buying new. Buy from a reputable dealer, get the gun professionally evaluated, and you'll be fine.
----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: foxfire]
      #47175 - 21/01/06 04:09 AM

In reply to:

The 7x65R and the 9.3X74R are as versital as you can get.



Foxfire

How much different is the recoil between these two calibres?

Also is the handling similar when barrels are changed around?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #47180 - 21/01/06 04:40 AM


400NitroEpxress,

Well said.

I feel that people generally do not do enough of their own research
- particularly reading of books and creating of a list of things to look
for when buying a used DR which means they will pick up most things
before they send it off for professional (ie JJ) evealuation.

People ask on the forums what to read and we always come back with
books to buy yet you see similar questions down the track from posters
who if they had the reference books on hand would have the answer at
their finger tips.

It has also removed all of the fun !!!

500 Nitro

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #47186 - 21/01/06 05:33 AM

NitroX,
The recoil of the 9.3x74R is slightly greater than the 7x65R. It didn't appear to be much more at all.
Taking the whole package into consideration. The rifle was originally a Big Five 470 NE. I had a breako recoil reducer put in at Krieghoff. The gun for a 470 balances perfectly. When you put the 9.3x74R barrels on it gets a little lighter in the tip and the 7x65R gets even a little lighter.
When the 470 barrels are on, it swings like a rifle. When the 9.3x74R or the 7x65R barrels are on, it swings a little more like a shotgun being a little light in the tip. It seems to swing like my Browning skeet gun, set up to take 12,20, 28 and 410 gauge barrels on the same recevier. Maybe that's why I had no problem getting used to the barrel changes. In either case it carries well and I love hunting with it.
Now I have to get the 470 barrels something big to hunt.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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1980E26
.300 member


Reged: 03/05/05
Posts: 195
Loc: USA
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #47388 - 22/01/06 10:53 AM

My choice would be a Heym 88B two barrel set. (ejectors standard)

7x57R with quick detach scope on first barrel set and some rimmed flavor on the second set (easy to find ammo for). 450/400, 450 or .470.

For $16K you might be able to squeeze in getting the sidelock version.



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Grizzly
.333 member


Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: Starter Doubles [Re: 1980E26]
      #47399 - 22/01/06 11:39 AM

As many of you know, I have lusted for a double rifle from a very young age. And I finally reached the point in my life where I could finally acquire my first double.

I joined this board a short time ago after I decided to jump in feet first.

This board has tremendous information on doubles.

I was ready to buy a used double, until I read the thread about used "double trouble". For someone new to doubles, it made tremendous sense to find a new double.

The British Doubles are out of my league on price. If they were all the same price, I would buy a British Double.

After being talked off of the ledge on my desire to buy a 577 NE, I did a lot of homework on new doubles.

The Searcy was on the top of my list. But when I looked at the base price on a PH of $9500, and added about $4000 for chopper lump barrels, over $1200 for intercepting sears, and over $1000 for a piece of wood that did not look like IKEA furniture, I realized that I needed to shop.

The caliber I decided on was the 470 NE. Lots of components and factory ammo. Great resale and a round proven for any game in the world.

I then looked at what I liked in rifles. A great piece of wood is a must. As well as a well designed stock that distributes recoil. Engraving was not important to me, but reliability and great shooting wzas on the top of my list.

Stainless is great, but it still rusts. And it adds weight. If you can get a well designed rifle from a company that has a lot of experience in maing DR's, a modern new DR will take care of you as long as you take care of it.

There were other less tangible factors as well.

My decision was a HEYM 88B Safari in 470 NE. Solid and dependable made by a company in business since 1865. Beautiful yetplain, like a beautiful woman that does not have to wear makeup. Lines more classic than Searcy.

With that said, Butch Searcy is evolving at a fast pace. In 3 years or so, I will be first in line to buy one of his rising ribgy third bite underlevers in a classic degign.

My first will be Heym.


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