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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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DarylSModerator
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: Plains99]
      #44589 - 22/12/05 05:57 AM

I seem to recall Selous 4 bore was a shortened Dutch fowler. The barrel was shortened to something like 24" or 26".
: I-too would hope for more weight than a 'fowler' might have. Perhaps it will have enough weight. The double barreled 4 bores weighed some 20 lbs. to 24 lbs. yet kicked horrendously - well over 200lb. recoil as tested by W.W. Greener. A .460 WTBY has some 86 pounds recoil for expample, and a .458 Winchester some 56 pounds recoil.
: .955" sounds a bit small, but then, a smoothbore requires a smaller ball than a rifle does. .955" is just over 6 bore which is around .92", I believe. Is a 4 bore not 1.1"? If so, I would think a ball 1.05" would allow a .030" thick patch which is very heavy denim, with .005" compression each side. This would be very easy to load and shoot. I would think a .955 ball too small (for a 1.1" bore), requiring a .073" thick patch just to reach each side.
: Is it possible, they are making a smaller, 5 bore instead? For all intents and purposes, it is much the same.
: Too many questions without having the gun in your hands- sorry, but, food for thought, just the same.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: DarylS]
      #44616 - 22/12/05 10:45 AM

Daryl: I'm only guessing and really don't know what they will send. I too am aware of the Dutch "fowler" conversions and hope that it is more of a weighty rifle configuration. They pounded Selous to pieces... yet the Boers hunted with 4 bores a lot... and seemed to do quite well with them. I'm in way over my head on this one because the biggest thing I've ever had in my hands is a .72 and can't imagine what it will be like to shoot such a brute. I've hunted a lot with big custom .58's that handled powder charges up to 150 grains very well but this is a completely different galaxy. Since the plan is to market it in RSA for hunters I imagine it will be a pretty solid rifle and probably heavier than the fowlers. And I'm only guessing on the loads from reading. Gregor Woods has some pretty good discussions on the 4 bore in his book "Rifles for Africa." Needless to say I've poured through it and reread Selous' first book. When I know more I'll share cause with South Africa's new gun regs, a historically correct pre-1890 muzzleloader is subject to no restrictrions and I've always felt that on bush game preserves a muzzleloader is a very credible way to enjoy a top knotch hunting experience.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: Plains99]
      #44628 - 22/12/05 12:50 PM

Bravo! Bravo! My thoughts exactly! Hince the purchase of the Kodiak 12 bore as my first tippy toe into the Bore Guns and DR of old. I've since concluded that I really want to custom smith up my own single shot 12 or 8 bore. I've been researching like crazy and have contacted Joe from Oregon Barrles about making either. They have 12 bores in stock with 1-70 twist, that are 1 1/8" width; which just fits the Long Rifles Supply's English Rigby Sporting stock. I think this would make a darn usable BP DG gun.

Colorado

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You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44730 - 23/12/05 04:14 PM

My .69 has a 1-1/8" octagonal barrel, straight and 30" long. It handles up to over 200gr. of powder just fine, but shot best with 165gr.2F, GOEX BP. this gave me 1,550fps with it's 484gr. bullet. It has a GR barrel with a faster twist than I wanted but was all that was available in that calibre in 1986.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: DarylS]
      #46208 - 09/01/06 05:22 PM

I think I've find the ticket. 130grns Triple 7, tight weave patch (old levi dockers Kaki), shotgun wad base. Was able to do this grouping all day long. Next I'll step up the load and see would happens.



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You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #46233 - 10/01/06 03:50 AM

Now that looks pretty good. Congratualtions.
: Although 130gr. seems to be a very heavy load, and is more than suitable for EVERYTHING over here, it is some 40gr. under the light 12 bore load for Africa.(if T7 equals GOEX BP for vel., 20gr. under if equals Swiss.) My testing lets me think that 130gr. 2F GOEX would suffice for most nasty game, expect perhaps CapeBuff and Elephant. I would be wanting the heavy 12 bore power for those, I think.
; I am certain, you'll be quite happy with it, though. Nice to get it working, finally.
: Have you shot it past 50yards yet? Do the balls maintain their respective impacts?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: DarylS]
      #46248 - 10/01/06 05:30 AM

I did a penetration test as well with this load into a bucket of wet sand. The pure lead deformed into cup about 1.25 to 1.35 in size. It traveled about 10 inches into the sand and did not pass all the way through the bucket.

I'm not sure how well these are going to kill, I think I might need some harder material to get the penetration.

I'll post the pics of the bullets tonight.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #46265 - 10/01/06 08:44 AM

You will find, that on Elk, Moose and bear, the pure lead balls will exit, as they have on about 15 moose so far. That is a .735" ball ahead of from 130 to 200gr. 2F froma .75 cal rifle. The fellow shooting this rifle dropped his load to 100gr. just to keep aball inside a Bull Moose.
: Now, the beauty of a large bore, slow twist rifle with .008" deep rifing, is that it will also shoot WW balls running 10 to 13 brinel just fine. You may have to adjust your patch for ease of loading, but with the wad separating the powder charge from the patch, a thinner patch should be just fine. Use enough BP lube on it, and go for it.
: Sand does no equate to meat, ribs and lung tissue very well.
: My bro put a .735 ball from a Brown Bess through to the off side of a big cow moose, using 100gr.2f. The ball expanded slightly to 1" in dia. after cutting through ribs on both sides.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: DarylS]
      #47076 - 20/01/06 06:00 AM

Last weekend I was playing around with my 45-70 1895 as well as the 12 bore. And I tell you, those 45 cal holes looked comical compared to the .72! Even if you aren't hitting the animal with a million FPE, the size of the hole and wound channel those balls make alone would kill the thing pretty dang quick. Its like driving a cookie cutter through the animal.

I've been watching Mark Sullivan's "Death by the Ton", and those Cape Buff really take some lead (sometimes). Of course shot placement is critical as always, but even still, some of the beast took 7 shots from either .375 H&H, 450NE, 475NE, and always the .577NE.

The .375 shooters fired more rounds on average, however, one fellow did dropped his buff with one shot to the chest. Good shot placement. But if the buff was charging would that be enough to drop it instantly? I think a good brain shot would, and I've seen an elephant drop with one shot to the brain with a .375 H&H. And of course Bell used the 303(or simular) with great success (brain shooting). But with a big, mean, mad critter, a large diameter bullet has to be devastating. Imagen a hole in buff's skull big enough to put a quarter through, thats gotta hurt. I have to think that this 12 bore would kill disproportionately to its FPE would suggest. Course I could be way off too.

Thanks,
Colorado



--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: DarylS]
      #47077 - 20/01/06 06:09 AM

Daryl,

This may be a stupid question, but what is WW lead?

Thanks,
Colorado

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Big bore big Game penetration [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #47080 - 20/01/06 07:14 AM

WW is wheel weights - here, they avaerage brinel 13 for hardness. Inother locals or from other supplies, they can be somewhat softer.
: In the .50 cal ctg. rifles, I use 50/50, WW and pure lead with no leading to 2,000fps. The bullets MUST be .002" oversize or they will lead. This seems to be universal for case bullets for rifles as well as handguns. In wheelguns, .001" oversize usually works just fine. Trouble arrises with leading if the bullets are sized to groove dia. and in some, even if .001" oversize. Generally, AS-CAST is the best as rarely does a modern mould cast more than .002" oversize.
: The softer lead (than some people use) continues to press against the barrel walls, to effectively seal off the gas pressures. Hard lead bullets must be oversize initally to maintain a tight fit as they won't slug-up while travelling down the barrel to help with the fit. My loads in .357mag. and .44 mag revolvers use only straight WW metal, without leading. My barrels are smoothly polished to start with.
: In the .50 rifles, I used SPG lube as well as Lyman BP lube for both BP and smokeless loads with clean shooting and great accuracy. Recently, I've started using Lyman Moly stick lube (not the old black stuff they've sold for 50 years) and it too seems to be good. The moly lube is for smokless loads only. For BP loads, use only BP lube.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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