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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
The 400 BW
      #4424 - 15/10/03 01:54 PM

Has anyone had experience with the 400 Brown Whelen?
(30/06 or 35 whelen necked up to 40 cal).
A book I have here reckons someone got over 2100 fps with a 400 grain Woodleigh from a 22" barrel with no pressure problems!
Sounds a bit optomistic to me.
I'm thinking of building one and would settle for 2000 plus if that was obtainable.
I'd also use Woodleigh 400gn in 22" barrel but would prefer a 416" dia rather than 411".

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4445 - 17/10/03 01:29 PM

I have no knowlege of the .400BW but I have heard that the .375 Whelan has some problems with headspacing because of the small shoulder. It seems that this would be worse on a .40 caliber.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: mickey]
      #4460 - 18/10/03 10:50 AM

mickey
I think your right about the headspace problems in both the 375 and 400 whelen cartridges.
The standard whelen cases were just necked up 30-06 brass but the 400 Brown Whelen has a blown out case body which gives a much better shoulder to headspace on.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4463 - 18/10/03 11:18 AM

4seventy

So would the 400 BW be more like a 9.3x62 necked up?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: The 400 BW [Re: mickey]
      #4476 - 19/10/03 09:03 AM

Yeah I guess so. I don't have the case dimentions but the photos look as if the diameter at the shoulder of the 400 may be a bit bigger than the 9.3.
The deal is that I would like to build a back up rifle for use on scrub bulls that can meet the following....
Be built on a standard length action....
Not need to have bolt face or extractor opened up....
Use easy to get brass....
Shoot a 400gn Woodleigh at a min of 2000 fps....
Weigh no more than 8 to 8 1/2 pounds with open sights....

Had plans to do it on a Brno ZG or a pre 64 Win but both rifles I was looking at were sold while I was away!

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4478 - 19/10/03 12:08 PM

Sounds like you want a 404. I can tell by your erudite manner and knowledge you wouldn't be caught dead with a 416 Rem.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: The 400 BW [Re: mickey]
      #4480 - 19/10/03 01:35 PM

Haha
A 404 would be spot on for sure if only one would turn up for sale here and also fit my poorman budget!!

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DaveJames
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Reged: 04/01/03
Posts: 66
Loc: Tidewater,Virginia
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4481 - 19/10/03 04:17 PM

Go to Z-Hat's web site and read on it he has been playing with one for awhile now, and claims to have the bugs work out

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: DaveJames]
      #4486 - 20/10/03 08:21 AM

Dave, thanks for the tip. Much good information there!

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4490 - 20/10/03 04:45 PM

I've got one of Z-Hat's Win 1895 chambered for 411 Hawk. I haven't been able to get 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet, but the lever rifle's slanted box magazine really limits the COAL.

The Hawk version is similar, but it is different than the Brown-Whelen version.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: DPhillips]
      #4491 - 20/10/03 06:33 PM

Interesting.....so it's not pressure that has stopped achieving 2100 but instead it's COAL reducing the available powder space?
Do you have any chronograph velocities with the 400gn bullet?

Thanks in advance.

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
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Loc: Alaska
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4498 - 21/10/03 02:51 AM

Well... not entirely. Its kind of a "loaded" question. Basically what I have found is the following, but just to clarify things a bit, I'm still working on fireforming my cylinder '06 cases.

To get the cylinder brass to proper spec, they are first full sized with the shoulder set to a slight crush fit in the chamber. Charges are made up to roughly 60,000 psi. Because the shoulder is so small, it takes a lot of pressure to form. It takes 2 turns in a very short distance. So, you are already at 60,000 psi. I'm not sure that needs to be exceeded. I could not get 400 grain X bullets seated deep enough with any of the recommended powder charges to push 2,000 fps and still fit in the magazine of the 95. I am currently working with some Woodleigh Weldcore's, but haven't shot them yet. I think those are going to work fairly well, because they are much shorter than the X.

Just a heads up, I ordered the cylinder brass from Quality Cartridge and had an extreme case failure on my last outing. Case seperation in the middle of the case, horizontally. It appears that, at least this one case, the walls are extremely thin when compared to factory 35 Whelen or 30-06 brass from Remington or Federal. I am going to section a few more cases before shooting anymore of this brass.

One other comment would be that all my cases have headspaced perfectly. Even the blown the case headspaced well. With the pushfeed, rear locking lever action rifle, I have yet to have any difficulties extracting cases or any problems with the headspace. Even pushing 60,000 psi I haven't had any brass flow, no loose primer pockets, no flattening or cratering of primers, no excessive stretching, etc... EXCEPT in that one case failure. I do believe it was caused by bad brass.

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4seventy
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: DPhillips]
      #4500 - 21/10/03 08:18 AM

I'll be real keen to hear how the Woodleigh 400 grainers go once you get around to testing them.
Also keen to know what kind of hunting you plan to do with this cartridge.

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DPhillips
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Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #4501 - 21/10/03 08:33 AM

I'll keep you updated on the load development...

As far the rifle's purpose, well...

I live in southcentral Alaska. That is where I do the majority of my hunting also. Some of my deer hunts take place on the "big" islands of the Prince William Sound, mainly Hinchinbrook and Montague Islands. The cover is fairly thick, consisting mostly of devil's club and alder jungles, but there are several places to spot deer at a distance across muskeg patches or above the timberline. The deer aren't real big, but the coastal grizzly bears (brown bears) get absolutely huge. I also do quite a bit of moose hunting around Cape Suckling and the vegetation there is similar to the islands. Basically I wanted a short, well balanced, fast handling rifle that could shoot spitzer shaped bullets with a reasonable trajectory at 250 yards. The rifle needed to be a fast repeater, but I didn't want to sacrifice the trajectory like you commonly do with lever actioned rifles shooting blunt nosed bullets. I really wanted a rifle that was 40 cal or more, and shoot premium grade bullets with a sectional density of around .300. I figured this could handle moose on the far side of 250 yard muskeg meadow or a 1,000 pound upset brown bear at shoestring distance.

So far the rifle is performing as designed, but that case failure kinda has me spooked. I won't fire anymore of that brass until I'm confident that it was a fluke. I may have to get some 35 Whelen brass, expand and fireform. It will probably be a little while before I'm able to resume load testing.

My original idea was to use the 350 grain Swift AFrame as the "money" load, but those bullets are getting scarce. The 350 grain Barnes X has been discontinued also. I've got 5 boxes of each (350 grain X and Swift) and am hording those like gold. I do have several boxes of the 400 grain Woodleigh's and will proceed on testing those as soon as I get this brass thing figured out.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: The 400 BW [Re: DPhillips]
      #4522 - 22/10/03 02:41 PM

Sounds like you live and hunt in a top location!
Also sounds like you put some serious thought into selecting that rifle and caliber.
My plans for a 400-06 are on hold for a while untill I can find an action that I'm happy with.
Some time back I sold a 1957 ZG47 Brno in 270 to an aquantaince (almost said mate) cause he just had to have it.
I stressed that if he later decided to sell it, I wanted first offer to buy it back but this did not happen and he sold the thing while I was up north.
Being a tad on the heavy side for cals like 270, it may have been just right for the little 400.
They truely are a sweet action to use and to look at!
Sadly not too many come up for sale here.

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #5115 - 23/11/03 08:47 AM

I'm going to try to post an image of that rifle. I did post some over at Accurate Reloading in the Lever Guns Forum.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: The 400 BW [Re: DPhillips]
      #5123 - 23/11/03 01:42 PM

A very nice rifle fo sure! Thanks for the photos.
That rifle should be a real good fast shooting game stopper.
I bet with the weight distribution the way it is, that it comes up fast for snap shooting, true?

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: The 400 BW [Re: 4seventy]
      #5139 - 24/11/03 04:01 AM

Yeah, it comes to the shoulder almost effortlessly and swings very well. That was a one of the main attributes we tried to create. We wanted to duplicate the feel of a bird gun more than a target rifle. The rifle is very responsive.

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