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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
12GA From Hell
      #44720 - 23/12/05 02:53 PM

Got some testing done with 12GA FH using
730 gr Dixie Terminator hard slugs..First the gun is 25 lb built on a Savage 210 action,
heavy barrel 31 in long.Stock is full of
lead shot and epoxy in the butt section..
We got 2700 fps top speed with TERMINATOR
lead slugs.No leading..All shooting done with one case to see how they hold up,over 2 dozen
firings and no resizing needed on the bottom
2/3 of the case yet, only size the top 1/3 to
grip bullet..cases fall out of chamber, and I have a minimum 12 gauge chamber as it is tight fit to get regular 12ga shot shell in it.Cases are made from BMG brass
that we put Rims on.Uses BMG primer.John at Bridger
made the rims, and put them on.

Loads done so far with 730 gr Terminator--

230 gr HBMG---1550 fps
280 ge HBMG---2000 fps---21k load

260 gr W860---2200 fps
300 gr W860---2400 fps---27k load

250 gr 7383---2560 fps---35k load..slight comp.

260 gr Magpro-2430 fps
300 gr Magpro-2700 fps---35k load-11,800 ft lbs.

As this crappy weather allows,
Will test 750 gr Bridger bullet; and
A Barnes 3/4 oz sabot(should get 4 grand).

Maybe we can find a way to get a thick walled reciever done to put the Savage bolt, bolt carrier, trigger etc on,with slightly larger
barrel thread..Then it would have safety margin for 50-55k loads.. The 3 lug bolt will hold if in thicker reciever...It is a real super smooth
operating action.

Rob on AR got his going also. His action is a Borchardt
falling block.He got 750 gr Bridger over 3000 fps,
15000 ft lbs energy.He can run full pressures as action
was made for 50 cal BMG.Ed Hubel



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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bulldog563
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #44723 - 23/12/05 03:04 PM

Wow.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: bulldog563]
      #44736 - 23/12/05 06:43 PM

But can you hit the side of the barn with it.
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44758 - 24/12/05 03:59 AM

We got it through the wires on the chrono at
20 ft.Muzzle blast could knock small barn down.
back stop is a big banded pallet of slabwood about 6 ft
through and it shakes when those slugs impact.
Did testing with 3/4 oz Barnes sabots, got out at about 3900 fps, using 300 gr of H-335 ball powder.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (08/01/06 01:05 PM)


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BlainSmipy
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #45503 - 02/01/06 03:13 AM

This is really just smokeless version of the old BP bore guns. They were king in their day. Exactly what creature on the plant needs this cannon? And how many bearers are needed to carry it for you?

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #46053 - 08/01/06 01:13 PM

Gun handles nice, has good balance.Very good for
stopping dangerous game.And making holes in target easy to see without a scope. Tailgunner came down today
and fired off a few rounds,and did it easy.And he
is a smaller guy than me by 90 lbs.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #46055 - 08/01/06 01:41 PM

Ed:
I have been following this development for years, originally over on AR. Good to see it reach completion. Many of these "hare-brained schemes" never make it past the drawing board. Congratulations, mate!

BTW, you are obviously nuts, however the symptoms are shared by many of us here!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #46796 - 17/01/06 12:22 PM

Marrakai--Thanks..We tested 750 gr Bridger hollow
base brass bullet got it to 2520, at about 33k psi.
We checked bolt lugs and seats on Savage and no signs of
setback.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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BlainSmipy
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #46818 - 17/01/06 04:16 PM

I know about those holes, my 12 bore punches those too. I shot my 458 cal and the 12 bore into the same target, it was laughable to see the difference.

Who says size doen't matter!

Colorado

Bigger is always better!

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #46819 - 17/01/06 04:17 PM

How about some pictures?

Colorado

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60falconclif
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #46843 - 18/01/06 03:23 AM

You really do have some awsome #'s there. Would love pix the only thing that keeps that thing from knocking you down has to be the wheight, and the four guys holding the gun up>>> sounds like fun...

Recoil Builds Character!!!


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 60falconclif]
      #47022 - 19/01/06 04:21 PM

Here is pictures of cases-1st is our case next to
12ga plastic case-2nd is BMG case with rim put on
next to fired case, fireformed from first case, and with
730 gr Dixie Terminator slug loaded in it.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #47919 - 25/01/06 02:38 PM

Here is pic of my gun and one below of Rob's--







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Ed Hubel


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bulldog563
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #47953 - 25/01/06 08:57 PM

WOW

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: bulldog563]
      #49290 - 06/02/06 02:09 PM

Here is picture of the Savage 210 three lug
bolt, next to an Enfield bolt to show the size
and it can be used for NE Cartridges.Got a fellow
who is going to use one to make 700NE. Rims are .880
same as 12ga diameter and 700NE base is .780 in
where our 12ga base is .801..Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #49344 - 07/02/06 04:32 AM

Check out www.accuratereloading.com for loads for the .700 Nitro Express in a bolt gun. They ran 1,000gr. bullets up to 2,450fps but wwere plagued with hang-fires until they used 2gr. of bullseye to kick the charge off better. They also used .50BMG brass, I believe.
: Be carefull in your loading and start quite conservativley.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #49368 - 07/02/06 10:37 AM

They used regular 700NE cases with mickey
mouse primers, which can hangfire without
bullseye.. With our case built from bmg we have
a primer 3 times as powerful, and it starts
230-320gr of slow powder fine.My 700HE a
long straight belted case, soon to be
tested is built from bmg brass and won't have no
hangfires, and it will add at least 500 more fps,
than the NE.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #49427 - 07/02/06 06:34 PM

OK so, in your words, they used mickey-mouse cases, well that makes you even as you are using mickey-mouse bullets - 260gr.- my word! That's too light for my .375 let alone a .73 cal rifle. At least they used 1,000gr. bullets. ;-)
: You say YOUR ctg. is going to get 500fps higher than the 700 Nitor Express?? You're saying you are going to make or beat 2,950fps with a 1,000gr. bullet? That will be something. I'm champing at the bit to see that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #49448 - 08/02/06 01:39 AM

Daryl--my 12ga bullets are 730gr-- The 260 grain
figure is in the range od powder weights.One load
Rob had was 2000 gr.The only light bullet I used in
12ga was a 3/4 oz sabot just to test it
for somebody.Be shooting heavier in couple weeks.
860 gr for somebody, 1100gr later on....
I used that mickey mouse
term because of the marginal primer they have in
the 700 NE relative to the amount of powder.Case
is fine, just primer isn't big enough.....And
everybody has trouble without fast starting powder,
which is a hell of a way to have to do it.
I am telling everybody that has 700NE to put a pocket
in it for bmg primer.They are only little over 20 cents
and it seems out of place to by a 700NE case for
60-100 bucks and not use a big enough primer.
Here we have my lowly Savage at moderate, medium,
pressures. outdoing all the NEs, Nyatis,
TREXs, JDJs, etc..And My 700HE(3.87 in long belted
staight case made from bmg, bmg primer) will be on BMG
rated action and it will get a 1000 grainer over
3000 fps.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #49454 - 08/02/06 03:13 AM

Ed,

Party on! How are the bore guns coming along?

Scott


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: ScottS]
      #49463 - 08/02/06 04:02 AM

Scott--Got 2 barrels for 2 bore.Ernie should be making
4 bore barrels by summer.Got 4 bore bullets, probably just use shot loads in two as smoothbore(will ream out
the too tall and too fast of twist rifling).Got to
get action.I will test 4 bore in state arms action
for load development.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #49550 - 09/02/06 05:15 AM

WOW - not for me. I've gotten away from most of the big kickers these last few years. I've only a wildcat .458 and .375 for large bore smokeless ctgs. now. I expect soon to re-barrel a 4140 actioned Sharps to .50 Alaskan in the near future.
: The .17 cal small cases are much nicer to shoot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #49841 - 13/02/06 03:05 PM

Daryl--Recoil isn't bad, as gun has good weight and
balance-It don't kick any worse than a ten pound
458 Lott,with full loads.When tailgunner fired
it, muzzle only went up 6 inches.Found a long
shotcup that holds 2 oz of buckshot.We will test
that in coupleb weeks.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #50163 - 17/02/06 09:29 AM

Shot 18 buckshot in shotcup, about 700 gr.Case 60%
full of powder, a 16ga wad on top of shot in cup.
All nice tight fit. Pattern at 25 ft was 3 ft due
to wad and rifling..Good redneck defense load??
Your a redneck when all your bigbores are singleshot
and your safari car is a double...Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #50477 - 21/02/06 05:38 PM

Here is picture the case we fired 36 times,
sectioned.. No thinning to be seen by eye or
measured by calipers..Cases super and will go
couple hundred firings at our pressures..And
they have big primer so no misfires or starter
powders needed.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #50908 - 26/02/06 01:27 PM

Have a fella going to use gun like my 12GA FH
to build 700NE..here is picture showing 700NE in the
loading port.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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AkMike
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #50909 - 26/02/06 01:41 PM

That's a pretty slick way to modify the 50 BMG to be a rimmed cartridge!
That thing looks pretty awesome.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: AkMike]
      #51436 - 04/03/06 02:27 PM

Karl suggested a double, one barrel smooth other rifled.
Here is pic of a heavy spanish made one that may
do the job. We are checking specs now.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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msorenso
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #51476 - 05/03/06 01:53 AM


Ed, your making me nervous.. Good picture!!!!!

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LIVE FREE OR DIE


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hubel458
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: msorenso]
      #52269 - 13/03/06 12:31 PM

One fella who got some of our extra cases is
going to use an AR-50 bolt action singleshot
for our cartridge.neat idea.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #52766 - 19/03/06 11:53 AM

Did more checking on Encore. They will work with
a real heavy barrel and a weighted thumbhole
buttstock.And long barrel to get weight and get the blast away from shooter. If I did one I'd make it 20
pounds at least. they will handle moderate pressure
with heavy barrel, muzzle same size as breech, so
that it will hold rifle type loadings.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #53555 - 29/03/06 11:43 AM

Here is comparison picture of some cartridges--
1st 700NE - 2nd our 12GA FH -- 3rd 700HE...Ed



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Ed Hubel


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bulldog563
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #53715 - 31/03/06 08:21 AM

You are a very sick man.

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: bulldog563]
      #53977 - 03/04/06 02:18 PM

Had a question about costs per shot--
For me 5 buck per lb surplus powder, hard slug 70 cents,
primer 24 cents, adds up to $1.15 per shot.20 buck, canister
powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the
power we are getting.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #55354 - 21/04/06 02:57 AM

Tested a 870gr hardened slug Greg Sappington makes.
Got it to 2300 fps. Lightened it to 730 gr got it over
2500 with no leading.Greg likes that.
Here is picture of 3 with one loaded
in case. I loaded long to get powder space, but you
wouldn't have to.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #56037 - 29/04/06 10:25 AM

Fellow from Greece,Lefteris, developed this brass 12ga
slug for both rifled and smoothbores.Uses sabot asit is .629, and 12ga is .729.He will get me a few to speed
test.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (29/04/06 10:27 AM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #57006 - 12/05/06 03:28 PM

I have figured out that all bullets for 500 S&W
will fit in the sabot Barnes uses in the
3/4 oz sabot load that Federal sells.Lighter
505 bullets will work also. And the front section of a 50 bmg bore rider bullet, it
is 2nd in picture in the sabot. It
is 470 grains, really streamlined.And
you can buy them by the ton, just cut back
portion that is .510 diameter off, and that leaves front part for a .500 dia bullet,
1.5 inches long..Good for armor plated chucks.First in picture is original
sabot with Barnes 3/4 oz hollowpoint slug.3rd is the 900gr 600NE slug in my sabot made from heavy shotcup. 4th on the miniature digital scale is an older Barnes .580 cal
saboted slug expanded, it's 435gr.Ed.





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #57902 - 28/05/06 12:29 PM

Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (28/05/06 04:17 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #57974 - 30/05/06 03:43 AM

In reply to:


Poster: hubel458
Subject: Re: 12GA From Hell

Karl suggested a double, one barrel smooth other rifled.
Here is pic of a heavy spanish made one that may
do the job. We are checking specs now.Ed







Ed

I am interested in what you discovered about this shotgun. I checked the website and they do not list any specs that the shotgun can be had with a rifled barrel.

Is it your intention to have them make a special order, or modified somewhere else?

Thanks.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: NitroX]
      #57983 - 30/05/06 06:40 AM

That gun only comes smoothbore and its barrels are too
thin at muzzle for our loads.We are checking on
others.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #59294 - 26/06/06 11:54 AM

I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #59502 - 01/07/06 03:54 PM

We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #59789 - 10/07/06 03:10 PM

The Savage is perking along.Got a 600gr hard
slug out at 3000fps, using a little faster ball
powder. I think 14,000 ft lbs is possible.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #59928 - 14/07/06 01:19 AM

Being some guns(NEF) need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #60238 - 23/07/06 10:42 AM

Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr
hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25.
Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing.

Got a 600 gr out at 3250, 14,000 ft lbs.Bottom
of cases need slight resizing. pushing
40,000 psi. Ball powder load.Savage extracted
cases on that load easy.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #60256 - 23/07/06 10:26 PM

Jeez, who is holding the rifle when it goes off? Must be a handful.

Curl



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: CptCurl]
      #60644 - 01/08/06 08:36 AM

Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3
shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension
made and will get it on in next couple weeks.
NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of
left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #61640 - 25/08/06 02:28 AM

We are getting a big replica 1887 12ga levergun to
test cases with. It's modern forged heat treated
action, and will go high pressures.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (25/08/06 02:29 AM)


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Bramble
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62007 - 02/09/06 10:13 AM

I'm building a 450 NE on that Zabala action at the moment. But that just looks pussy in comparison. I am in awe!

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Bramble]
      #62070 - 04/09/06 10:39 AM

Zabala E213 Magnum is nice gun. Who sells them in US?
We got 1887 12ga levergun here. It 2 & 3/4 inch
chamber. We will test with our case shortened and
Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic. Ed



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Edited by hubel458 (04/09/06 10:41 AM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62433 - 13/09/06 10:58 AM

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62543 - 16/09/06 02:06 PM

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball andRE-7 they look good.
Have got loads with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (01/10/06 03:05 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62680 - 19/09/06 02:30 PM

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62822 - 21/09/06 02:08 PM

Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in the NEF.And 100 gr RE-7 in
1887 and we are keeping it down in original barreled
1887 due to plastic cases expanding just
ahead of the rim in two spots due to
extractor cutouts. New barrel will solve
that as we will make cutouts different.
Up to 140 gr RE-7 in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,
highbase, lowbase, etc. Lowbase extracts easiest.
You who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (01/10/06 03:12 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #63242 - 30/09/06 01:25 PM

Tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #63658 - 06/10/06 01:28 PM

I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64018 - 14/10/06 03:00 PM

I got the hammer on 87 beefed up to fire big primers.
Still testing plastic and turned cases in 87.
We are testing small primers with 10gr starter powder(Blue
Dot) and RE-7 and 15.Plastic cases max is 90gr RE-7 with
10 gr starter, turned brass case 110gr RE-7 10 gr starter.
WE had to go to starter powder as we was getting
delayed ignition and squib loads.
Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter powder ... A big find. IE, we can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64644 - 25/10/06 05:06 PM

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64840 - 29/10/06 01:29 AM

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65025 - 01/11/06 03:13 PM

I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65215 - 03/11/06 12:26 PM

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (03/11/06 04:22 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65320 - 05/11/06 09:01 AM

I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65808 - 13/11/06 04:33 PM

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
tham our 4759 loads.Ed


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65821 - 13/11/06 10:28 PM

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Makes my eyes water just reading your posts.....

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #66264 - 03/12/06 10:05 AM

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #66667 - 09/12/06 04:51 PM

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #67273 - 17/12/06 03:30 PM

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #67633 - 21/12/06 03:02 PM

In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #68419 - 31/12/06 03:25 PM

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.
On the scaleup model solved the hard cocking
problem by usinf NEF hammer mounted in a
lengthened breech block. It pivots h\behind
the toggle pin and is taller so it cocks easy
even though it has doubled the springs
to fire big primers.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69218 - 10/01/07 10:57 AM

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.





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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69595 - 16/01/07 05:11 PM

Founf info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69617 - 17/01/07 12:58 AM

A SxS double 12GA FH ?!

NOW you're talking!

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #70090 - 24/01/07 04:27 PM

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70352 - 28/01/07 08:51 PM

Double pumper 870 big bore. 20 shots
Karl would love this with 600 gr,
4759 loads, if they'd let him have one.
Fires both or one at a time.
Classified on THR.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70615 - 01/02/07 11:32 AM

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed



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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70630 - 01/02/07 11:46 PM

Hey Ed, please don't take our lack of replies as a lack of interest, or a lack of praise for your effort and enthusiasm on the jumbo 12.

We're just speechless...!

Keep it coming!

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When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #70978 - 08/02/07 06:06 AM

Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the
block.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #71480 - 14/02/07 03:40 PM

Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is
28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag
barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one
on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still
will fire shorter cases..Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #71485 - 14/02/07 04:32 PM

Man, I gotta agree with Marrakai on this. This is textbook how-to stuff.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (14/02/07 04:33 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 475Guy]
      #72301 - 23/02/07 04:52 AM

Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic cases with small primers. They don't fire
dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have
VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries
about getting our cases shortened for strength
and they want to put in small primer.
They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but
must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders,
if they are used by themselves. Any slower powders, a fast shotgun starter powder
is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr
of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested
in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #72742 - 28/02/07 12:49 PM

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #73448 - 09/03/07 05:17 AM

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the rtop rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74130 - 18/03/07 03:54 PM

Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't
expand to much to resize.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74409 - 23/03/07 01:09 PM

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74625 - 26/03/07 11:24 AM

My Zabala 3 1/2" 12 guage was just reproofed to 3500 bar when it went in after being sleeved to 450#2 NE if that helps for a heavy action.

Regards


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Bramble]
      #75153 - 31/03/07 01:47 PM

Yes that's what I want to do also go smaller with
28ga and my 510 so as to run 50k pressures.Zabalas are nice.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #76194 - 11/04/07 02:28 PM

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #76589 - 15/04/07 01:56 PM

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #77202 - 22/04/07 12:16 PM

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #77689 - 30/04/07 01:18 PM

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect
ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #78085 - 06/05/07 11:02 AM

Tested 730 gr with 7383,Perfect ignition.
Plastic 3" cases, different brands.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps. Extracts easy.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79033 - 20/05/07 12:43 PM

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79562 - 29/05/07 01:32 PM

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79564 - 29/05/07 06:14 PM

Quote:

Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage




Whaa...! 2700 fps with 750gr projectile?!
That's over twelve thousand foot-pounds!

Oops! Sorry...! Gotta go change my shorts...!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #79775 - 02/06/07 01:09 PM

Marrakai- That's the same as max I got with
730 gr hardened Dixie lead slug. Finally a
brass solid I really like as far as being able
to load it same as lead or soft jacketed.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #80195 - 09/06/07 01:44 AM

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #80821 - 17/06/07 12:49 PM

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #81215 - 24/06/07 11:35 AM

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was
annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
The slow powders in large diameter cases
needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. This concept has beeen
used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or
blow out the rims on regular plastic cases
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter
that can take high full load pressures,
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,
in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #81510 - 30/06/07 03:29 AM

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that works with
real heavy slugs also. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #82033 - 08/07/07 12:46 PM

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #82036 - 08/07/07 02:18 PM

Ed,
You mentioned a while ago that you were looking for a long 12 ga rifled barrel, I just imported one from Pac-Nor, I think you would probably know about them, they should be able to make them 30" + for you.
I hope they weren't the barrel guys that returned your money!

Regards,
David.


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82074 - 09/07/07 04:08 AM

I'm dealing with PacNor now. It was Bauska that
closed up. They had better prices but the man is
almost 90 years, times to retire.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #82461 - 15/07/07 04:49 AM

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #82887 - 23/07/07 03:51 AM

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #83257 - 30/07/07 08:01 AM

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #83567 - 05/08/07 01:48 PM

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #84125 - 17/08/07 01:42 AM

Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate
like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #84970 - 31/08/07 12:50 AM

I tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it.
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA with a heavy barrel like one I will put
on it Make a good slug gun.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #85285 - 08/09/07 11:40 AM

The 12GA From Hell is now on
Ammoguide, the last page of
cartridge list.Ed

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=611

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #85847 - 18/09/07 11:54 AM

Saw info on a break action that
would handle 12ga FH.It is Cole,
with a strong top lock and real wide
strong extractor.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #86262 - 27/09/07 04:04 PM

Tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small
primers. My chamber is long for our
long brass case, so they work fine.....
600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,
got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,
got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from 12ga
plastic shotgun cases.Ed

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #86725 - 07/10/07 11:31 AM

Along with testing loads in 3.5" plastic, later tested same loads
in 3" RMC brass cases; and with 600gr slug, same wt 4227 and
7383 surplus powders got same 2100 fps.I got a MEC Super Sizer
coming to size base of plastic and RMC cases. Both are hard to
resize with regular die, but this will save time and allow many
more firings of the cases.Just got 3.5" plastic for dime each,
and this sizer will allow as many firings as the RMC brass.Ed

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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #86787 - 08/10/07 01:42 PM

You had that shoulder reconstruction yet, Ed?

Hope you guys are having half as much fun making and shooting these things, as we are reading about it!

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #87070 - 13/10/07 03:30 PM

A bullet fella contacted me and he will make
750gr jacketed 12ga slugs for buck and a half.
He uses Corbin equipment, and that is a very
great price as others have quoted almost
50% more. Minimum order 500 bullets.He
has to get couple pieces of punch and die
tooling to make them .729" to fit most rifled
barrels, and he will get tooling if we pay
half, which is 300 bucks. I want to find
10 guys to put in 30 each plus order 50 or
a hundred and we have him get tooling ordered.
Contact me so I can see how many want to get
in on the deal.Then after I tally everyone
I will get back to you for the funds for dies
for you to send the them to him..Here is pic
of a sizer we got that does plastic
cases back to factory specs in few seconds
and allows 3 times more reloads. It will
also do the RMC cases I have. No more cases
sticking in dies, or spending 5 min
to get them sized only half assed.ED.




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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #87489 - 21/10/07 04:35 AM

Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG
size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt
handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs
still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown
Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98
Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for
my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun.
Loads up to 825 gr at 2500. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #87838 - 26/10/07 12:57 PM

The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed



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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #87844 - 26/10/07 06:26 PM

Quote:

can you guess the 3rd?.




The 40mm Bofors Short? (...from hell?)

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #87886 - 27/10/07 01:57 PM

Not that big friend--A great name though-
It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long
brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.
The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do
you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases.
Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it
from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting
on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #88256 - 05/11/07 04:23 PM

8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test
gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs.
All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like
my 700HE one, all lug seats gone in the
front like a Mauser shotgun.
May have a way to get barrels 'fast'---
fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I
have money to do it. And only about
150 bucks each.......Am working on it.
In pic you see long case sticking out of
the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a
couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and
hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the
Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose and
hollow base, that will fit bores tight.
The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #88660 - 10/11/07 04:03 PM

Howabout this Long Tom slug gun.....Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #89260 - 19/11/07 05:51 AM

Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel.Ed

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Shackleton
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #89572 - 23/11/07 02:57 PM

I've noticed none of these have sights or optics(at least in the pics)-is that still a pending development or just simply not necessary for the type of shooting you're doing? That Enfield action with the thumbhole stock is quite the setup.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Shackleton]
      #89638 - 24/11/07 12:06 PM

Most get shot a lot in the rest for chrono
and load development work. Then if any
lathe work, chamber work, etc, has to be done,
no sights in the way..Then I put on sights
on. My 458HE in the Ruger77 has a scope, the 458HE
in Enfield has aperture sight. these two my first
wildcats from the 90s. Them my 12GA FH in
Savage has aperture, the 12ga FH in Nef is aperture.
My 585HE in Enfied is aperture, The Enfield with
700 nothing yet, the Enfield that I tested 550 mag in,
no sights, and is getting rechambered to a 28GA FH( same bore
as 550), The 1887 not yet. 4 other actions not yet
barreled. You see why I have no time to chase wimmen......
as I do my own work.....Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #89651 - 24/11/07 03:15 PM

OK, that explains it-I'd love to have the tools to do all the work myself(still toying with the idea of gettig a NEF and doing the work-have to convince the wife I need an "elephant gun"). Us shooters understand the need, but someone who only shoots rimfires doesn't see why I'd want a bigger gun than what I have.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Shackleton]
      #90280 - 01/12/07 02:43 PM

Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
This is a heavy barrel for that type of load,
don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #90702 - 06/12/07 04:30 AM

In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #91420 - 13/12/07 12:15 PM

In the long barrel 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.

The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #92336 - 21/12/07 05:50 PM

10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. The 765 gr Fed slug is hollowbase for
smooth bores. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic cases.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #92540 - 24/12/07 12:20 PM

10GA FH info.Fed factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave another 150 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #93190 - 02/01/08 04:58 AM

Some interesting things we find......
First two cases are ours we had made by putting rims on bmg
brass, The right ones a santa sent me and appear to be
drawn, high strength case that are same dimensions.
Are they worth rounding up, seeing as how the guy
who made our first bunch just closed and retired. .......Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #93537 - 05/01/08 06:08 PM

In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

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rigbymauser
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #93541 - 05/01/08 09:26 PM

Hey ED!

Can the lever actioned 1887 Winnie copy be barreled with a 12 gauge(.735cal)rifled barrel??

Love your experiments

happy new year

Edited by rigbymauser (05/01/08 09:27 PM)


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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: rigbymauser]
      #93542 - 05/01/08 09:32 PM

Damn, Ed!
You had me looking twice at a Sportco Model 53 12-bore bolt-gun on one of the gun-sites this morning!

(Eeeew! Off to wash my mouth out...!)

Still, if any Savage 210 actions turn up here at the right price I would certainly be interested.

(...y'hear that, Al?)

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #93736 - 07/01/08 02:08 PM

Rigby--Yes that bore of rifled barrel can be put on, as well
as a .729 rifled or any smooth barrel. I put on a smooth
just because it was first to get here, and I tested loads with
it. Hell action would handle 20ga, 16ga, even 10ga.

Marrakai--Yes if you find Savage thay are the ones. You
can put any NE case or shotgun case up to 10ga.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #93980 - 10/01/08 11:37 AM

Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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smicha6551
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #94056 - 11/01/08 06:46 PM

On the first page a Borchardt falling block for .50 BMG is mentioned - does anyone know if it is still in production? I can't find any info on it.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: smicha6551]
      #94172 - 13/01/08 10:50 AM

Borchardt's # I have 505-535-2923 ..

28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #94176 - 13/01/08 04:25 PM

Hi Ed, Did you get my PM & email about shells and some slugs ??

Thanks

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #94196 - 14/01/08 05:41 AM

Quote:

Borchardt's # I have 505-535-2923 ..

28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed





;
: Please advise the exact groove diameter of the 28 bore, please. For me, this thread is again attracting my attention. The 28 sounds worth making up for playing around here. A .54/170?/3-1/4 - cool! 170 was just a guess.
; First measurement on a Ruger #1 Action showed rims to around .60" only would be allowed without some grinding.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #94215 - 14/01/08 10:28 AM

Sarg- I got email and sent a reply.The Proparms cases I
want to find is just to pass them on to others with
primer pocket bushing put in. Just going to charge for bushing.
That way others can do the 12GA FH long case.

Daryl-- 28ga groove diameter is .550", same as our 550 Magnum that
I tested in same gun. COTW also says 28ga normal bore .550",
there are co making 550 barrels ans bullets now.
28ga rim is .680". Should be no problem putting it in Ruger as they do
500NE in Rugers with .660' rim and some 577 with bigger rims.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #94705 - 19/01/08 02:32 PM

Here is picture and info on Royal
Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads,
used in little cannons for bomb work.
Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED

http://www.royalarms.com/EOD/ammo/canonammo.gif

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #94731 - 19/01/08 11:52 PM

tks.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #95298 - 28/01/08 03:34 AM

I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting
a 700 barrel on one and chambering for
my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now.
Should get the same energy levels as
the 12GA From Hell case in same action.
In pic is 700H case in the action. Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #95322 - 28/01/08 10:53 AM

Ed,

While I read all of your posts because the idea of powerful rifles fascinates me (though I am not happy with recoil and prefer to shoot my very pedestrian 8mm and 30-06 instead) I rarely post because I don't know as much about ballistics as most members do. I have only recently begun to work on handloading and have ordered equipment with the advice of members here, for example.

My question to you is, do you think that your 12 GAFH could be made into a double rifle? At the kinds of enormous power levels that you have worked out from it, if this were possible, you just might have the most powerful double rifle round around. Just speculating here - if this is a stupid question, my apologies are ready in advance.

Good hunting!

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #95384 - 29/01/08 05:34 AM

ed

you keep talking about heavy barrels, could you be more specific if it is possible as to wall thickness both chamberwall and barrel wall, your tread is very inspiring and im getting a sxs home soon that is very overbuildt as a 12 gauge, and im thinking about following in your footpath.

thanks

peter


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: peter]
      #95398 - 29/01/08 09:27 AM

Yes you can build a heavy barreled double, with barrels
as heavy as used on the NEF Ultra Slug gun.
The diameter needed for our slower powder 12ga loads, is
1.20" at the breech and 1.050" at muzzle. I have a
Zabala 10ga double that if I get time and money I want to
build a heavy barreled 12 ga bore gun. Like a 700NE only
our cases is longer and .029" more bore. But getting one
done is really expensive.And even 12ga doubles that are
premium, I haven't seen any with heavy enough muzzles.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #95405 - 29/01/08 11:02 AM

thanks for the quick reply ed.

i got a toy gun from holts auction, in 12 gauge with an action that was so overbuildt that it looks like a 12 with 20 tubes. so i wanted to monoblock it anyways but then i saw your tread again and got a bit hot under the collar, i will do the mesaurments when it comes home and see about barrels etc it looks so fun i think dieter horneber could do a few cases as well, allthough i dont think i will do a full 3.87" a nice 3" would do nicely .
something like a paradox on steroids.

best regards

peter


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: peter]
      #95443 - 29/01/08 08:57 PM

Peter

I would be keen on some 3in brass shells if you are getting some made ,let me know on them !
Have a look at my 12 Bore rifle under "J&W Tolly 12 Bore Rifles Photos" post ,looks a bit like steroid uses

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #95557 - 31/01/08 04:21 AM

hi sarge

as soon as i get a price i will let you know, and yes i love your rifle. talk about 12 gauge on steriods wauw. i bet it will fun to shoot when you get the loads right

ed could you recommend a load with as low pressure as possible what im looking for is:

750 grn. fosbury style projectile.

3 " brass case.

around 2100-2200 fps

hopefully under the 3000 bar limit

im trying to see if my friend and his cnc lathe could do some steel tips that i could try to cast into the fosbury form, so i could get fosbury hollow points and steel inserts as solids for some fun hunting and tests.


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: peter]
      #96114 - 06/02/08 04:02 PM

You can get heavy base turned cases from MRC in any length.
For a 750 gr that fast you have too high pressure for double.
Using 3.5 inch plastic I got a 600gr to over 2000 in heavy barrel
NEF, and cases stick and won't extract when I went higher.
You can probably get to 1800 depending on extraction, with 750gr.
If you can find drawn cases without balloon heads that is best.
Personally after all research and getting cases around, if
I do a gun without going the full 3.85" length, I will do them
in 3.5" plastic, it is just so much easier and saves money,
and 3.5 inch plastic wil lkeep up with 3" brass. Ed

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Marrakai
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #96123 - 06/02/08 07:27 PM

600gr slug over 2000 fps in an NEF??


You guys....!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #96161 - 07/02/08 06:43 AM

That's rather interesting, Marrakai. Perhaps the standard shotgun NEF can handle it, however they aren't the same action as the centrefire rifles, however- according to NEF.
; Whether there is a differnce in design or material or both, I don't know.

--------------------
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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Sarg
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #96213 - 07/02/08 11:11 PM

I have shot full Nitro loads in my 500 NE 3 1/4 on rebarreled - NEF- ! Too much recoil ,like scary recoil ! I now use 535 gr @ 1850 fps NFB type load ,very easy to shoot .
I think rifle action is better steel & heat treated ? but same design !

--------------------
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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #96284 - 08/02/08 01:12 PM

The newer 10ga and 12ga Ultra NEFs are the SB2 strong action just like their
big bore rifles. The only difference is shotgun has a larger diameter
firing pin. The SB2 is an investment cast, properly heat treated,
action like a Ruger 77 bolt gun. And it is almost twice as strong as the
SB1 action they make, for their 12ga Pardner series, their 20 ga Ultra,
and various others.I have both 10 and 12ga on SB2 and so far they've
taken a beating and are still tight.And the 12 has a thumbhole stock
and weighted to 15 lbs and it even handles 600 gr at 2500, from
long brass case, that fits in the lengthened chamber.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (08/02/08 01:16 PM)


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #96613 - 12/02/08 03:21 PM

28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case
got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal
lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is
by Hornady and its front band actually measures
.550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight.
Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that
are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each.
All will work in plastic or long brass
case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and
it will go on a Mossberg bolt action
for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #97048 - 19/02/08 03:42 PM

Tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long
brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell
that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run
about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight
fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them
in the grooves. Same speeds as above for GPs.
They are a little harder alloy slug than
the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder
for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from
RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies
Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for
sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut
top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't
even have to have the bottom half sized, which
is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases
we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we
don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed
__________________

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #99025 - 12/03/08 11:49 AM

In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel,
long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases,
1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227
powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting
some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special
longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads
with less case expansion and easier resizing.
Should get same slug to 3000 and resize
easier also. With shotgun primer able to use
4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer
or firing pin to do big primers.

Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases used in little
cannons for bomb disposal. Got 12 now.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (12/03/08 11:54 AM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #99748 - 20/03/08 03:17 PM

Here is picture of the Enfield bolt,
showing the 2 rear lugs I added.
The huge bolt handle base 3rd rear lug.
Bolt handle needs polishing.This one
will be in the action for the 8GA FH.
The Enfield I have 700H in is like
this also.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #100498 - 27/03/08 12:34 PM

Here is picture of the 4 slugs I've used in
the 28GA FH load developement in the
3.25" long brass case and they
also work in the plastic cases. Ed




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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #100963 - 31/03/08 12:54 PM

THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with
rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases.
Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base.
I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as
regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups
at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check
ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any
good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr
of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a
410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup
up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore .832"
bore at the muzzle. Ed

Edited by hubel458 (31/03/08 03:51 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #101556 - 04/04/08 05:00 PM

Some 8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
The plastic in 8ga case is twice as thick as
in 12ga cases. Tried 4227 and case is too large
diameter for dependable ignition.So it's
old dependable 4759..Ed

--------------------
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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #101966 - 08/04/08 01:55 PM

Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed




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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #102473 - 14/04/08 06:06 PM

In picture of the 8ga bolt action you can see the
ring I put on front of bolt to support large diameter
8ga casehead. It is suported against thrust by the
front lugs, and total bolt thrust is supported by rear
lugs and have taken the heavy loads ok.. Ed

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Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #102496 - 15/04/08 01:11 AM

Acc.Arm's 5744 should work as well as 4759. maybe better, maybe not.
: You would know where to start better than I. Still haven't gotten around to testing my 4227 loads in the 12 bore. Shoulder won't take much right now.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #102601 - 16/04/08 02:26 PM

Quote:

Acc.Arm's 5744 should work as well as 4759. maybe better





I agree.


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: ]
      #102677 - 17/04/08 04:57 PM

5744 is used a lot in large cases with partial filling of
cases with powder. But you can't fill the large cases to
90-100% as pressure climbs to much in big cases

Others tested 5744 and it is ok up so far. Shotgun cases are
in the realm of large cases. It works with wads,
to take up air space ok, but you can only get half the weight
of 4759 or 4227 loads before peak pressures are too high
above the limit that we want, which is about 15000 psi in
12ga.And still not get velocities that 4759 and 4227 get.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (17/04/08 05:00 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #102711 - 18/04/08 01:30 AM

I understand. So far 4759 seems to be the only powder that will make 2,500fps in the big "8". This is unfortunate, as that is only in the ballistic range you've accomplished in the 12 bore. I would have thought this ctg. would make 2,500fps with a 1,500gr. slug. A little much for deer, but a great comfort with a charging brown bear. The shot would knock you out of the way, and quite likely stop a charge even if not a lethal hit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #103536 - 26/04/08 03:15 AM

The gun is the limiting factor. If we had big bolt gun, front
lugs, we could get 770 gr to 3000+, 1050 gr to 2700+ in plastic.
A brass case could do more.But it's not bad for plastic.

I also have two other cartridges with my name
on them that I am promoting. They are my 700HE
and my 585BHE. They both belted straight cases.
Montana Rifle company is coming out with their
big PH action and some guys will be doing my
cases in them.
Info on the 585BHE. It will work in
any gun that handles 505 Gibbs like Enfield, CZ,
Ruger,etc.Mine is in Enfield.Here is picture of
of one next to Trex. And mine holds 15gr more
powder than that Trex case. 585BHE will do 750
grain from 1800 to 2800 fps in my Enfield.
Anyone interested setting up a gun, contact me
I will furnish reamer and 15 free cases. Cases are
headstamped. When done return reamer to me, for
the next guy. I will keep them sharpened. After a
few guys have guns we all will get together with
others wanting some and get a run of brass made.
These cases are all drawn high pressure brass.
I'd like guys to ask for reamer when gun is going
to be ready to chamber, that way reamers get the
most guns done in shortest time.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #103537 - 26/04/08 04:09 AM

Ed - some time ago, Les Bauska used to make up overly-large Ruger-style #1 Actions chambered for the .600 Nitro. A note to his son might shed some light on this for action size, rim size allowance, etc, and if the outfit who cast the actions for Les is still in operation. A huge #1 Action would make a fine modern 8 bore me thinks - kinda like so many English guns, but hammerless, of course.
: I'd really like to take you up on your offer of the reamer and cases, but alas, my shoulder will no longer take such punishment. Woe is me. Some day, we have to meet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #104005 - 01/05/08 03:51 PM

He isn't in business any more and none of
family is in it either.

On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #104448 - 07/05/08 01:13 PM

Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion...Ed

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Ed Hubel


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gryphon
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #104452 - 07/05/08 03:34 PM

So when are you going to build a double !2 from hell?

Now that will be another beast and a half.

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Shackleton
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: gryphon]
      #104617 - 09/05/08 03:07 PM

Quote:

So when are you going to build a double !2 from hell?

Now that will be another beast and a half.



Very interesting idea, but the weight would likely be unreal based on the heavy barrel diameter(thinking diameter of heavy barrel NEF), plus an action large enough for the barrel size AND strong enough for the pressure. Unless someone knows of an existing double that fills the bill a double, as interesting as it would be, would probably be a "from scratch" gun.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Shackleton]
      #104670 - 10/05/08 11:59 AM

I have found a Zabala double that would work, but changing barrels
without the money, time, and good machinery, can't be done by me,
as I have 15 easier time consuming deals a going. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #104873 - 12/05/08 03:23 PM

Here is picture of a sectioned 8ga plastic case
showing how heavy and strong it is built. The
plastic is one piece compressioned formed and
the sides of the cases are twice as thick as
12ga cases.You can see the double thickness
of the base cup. Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #105835 - 22/05/08 10:50 AM

Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #106406 - 31/05/08 02:46 PM

I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick.
First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all.
First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft,
32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill
a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends.
Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish
the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put
in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it had was just like
the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #107264 - 12/06/08 02:50 PM

For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was taken from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #107600 - 17/06/08 05:16 PM

Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM

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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #108052 - 25/06/08 12:24 AM

There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

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Ed Hubel


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peter
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #108059 - 25/06/08 01:36 AM

ed you have entirely too much fun, and now the grandkids get the bug as well. good shooting

peter


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: peter]
      #108517 - 30/06/08 01:58 AM

I've got extra 28ga alloy rifled barrel now.
So along with first one in Enfield I will be doing one
in Mossberg 695 bolt action. Will add a little weight
to the stock and one of kids will see how it does on
deer this fall.Ed

Oh here is URL of the Grandpa's First Shot Video--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #108921 - 04/07/08 12:50 PM

Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #109670 - 13/07/08 01:48 PM

Somebody suggested this picture to show the
difference between shotgun powder, factory loads
and our loads in plastic and brass as it relates to
increased powder capacity. Factory 3rd case with
small amount of powder(more wads), 2nd case plastic with
larger amount(less wads), 1st, brass case all powder.
This allows us more volume of slower powder.
Also the Videos, 'Grandpa's Cannon', 'Grandpa's First
Shot', are heading up to 3000 views on Youtube.
Any of you who could pass info about the videos out
over the net, I'd appreciate it. Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #111265 - 07/08/08 02:03 PM

Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block
action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one
of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed






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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #111800 - 14/08/08 10:27 AM

Got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel
finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel
I locked onto an I-beam and got testing and
load developement done over the last couple
years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs.
It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock,
a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced
wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #111806 - 14/08/08 11:19 AM

Gotta hand it to you, you're very serious about this stuff.

I used to like to get kicked around by big guns, but since coming down with torn cartelage in my right shoulder, front and back, I've lost some of the "belt me if you can" attitude. Dr's who know shooting, think it's the kicking from certain postions that has exacerbated damage caused by pulling my own shoulder back into joint a number of times. Got to the point all I had to do was to reach back over my shoudler and it would pop out - not good. Which came first, chicken or the egg? I say all of this only as a warning to those too tough to wear protection when shooting kickers.

Right now, my little guns are all I can shoot, up to the little medium, the 9.3x57 - and that wearing a magnum recoil protector and only for 10 shots. Really crimping my shooting, but pain is a limiter for sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #111958 - 16/08/08 02:29 PM

I don't shoot a large number of rounds from the
shoulder. And all my chrono and first testing is with
guns lock to a 300 lb weight on a heavy standup bench.
The thumbhole stock is a great recoil tamer. Ed

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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #112385 - 24/08/08 01:26 PM

Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine
article in Very High Power...Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #112911 - 29/08/08 01:47 PM

Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later
this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it
will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten
or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for
show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the
AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built
with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores.
The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert
will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea
is being explored to try to get superior penetration
from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #113543 - 04/09/08 02:11 PM

Here is another view of my 700HE blaster,
that I got rigged up on an action and stock.
Side view shows action with a aperture sight I
rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case.
Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now.
Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in
a work up in testing with the barrel as a test
barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed



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Bramble
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #113564 - 04/09/08 06:31 PM

I do take it you mean 2,300 fps Ed not 23,000

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Bramble]
      #113570 - 04/09/08 07:06 PM

I think he means it ! from reading Eds posts it,s 23000 FPE , Eds guns have LOTS of energy !!

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #113609 - 05/09/08 01:47 AM

I stand chastened and corrected. I wrongly assumed that it was a typo for 2300 fps

Dear god in heaven, that is a shoulder fired artillery piece.


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Bramble]
      #113677 - 05/09/08 02:10 PM

That is from a 1000gr bullet over 3200 FPS. That is a
show off load. Hunting load about 2300-2600.
Any of you over there interested in my shorter 3.25" 700H case, which
will work in MRC PH action coming out(I have it in a reworked
Enfield and a Savage 210), contact Karl. He is working
to get a few cases imported from me over there, and I also have
a chamber reamer that you all can use. The short case is perfect
for actions sized between Ruger/CZ and BMG actions.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (05/09/08 02:14 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #114252 - 12/09/08 12:01 PM

Here is picture of a dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #114253 - 12/09/08 12:20 PM

Do you think the rear of the dart projectile will blow out the way a minnie ball does?
Could the hollow enable you to load more powder in a shorter case since powder could also be housed in the base of the bullet itself? May be a challenge to load though...

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Huvius]
      #114295 - 13/09/08 02:17 AM

Cool bullets, Ed. Are the .600's for a tight 20 bore or for sabots in the 12?

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #114353 - 14/09/08 05:45 AM

Huvius- The back is solid. Rob drilled hole in the front to within
1/4" of base. Hole was 7/16" then he drilled 1/2} hole in
3/4" and put in insert, against step. Idea of aluminum and hollow
inside is to get front heavy projectile stable at slow twists or
in smooth barrels.

Daryl- Those are brass bullets for .620 cal rifles, 600NE,
and Rob'd 600OK. They work in a 20ga with .620 rifled barrel. Ed

Edited by hubel458 (14/09/08 05:48 AM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #114373 - 14/09/08 10:49 AM

TKS for the response. Those 20's look awsome. The longer, aluminum jacketed ones in 12 bore - incredible.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #114474 - 15/09/08 03:33 PM

Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and a hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose
for streamlining..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #114639 - 17/09/08 01:38 PM

Two other 12ga slugs RG may do later on are full
jacketed ones. If interested in the hp one above
contact him at number above. He has to do a bunch
of them to get ahead to do others.And they will be
a fantastic deer, hog, bear slug. He is in Georgia.
Also, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH
brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who
had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum,
is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do
it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many
you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure
the best price. He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with,
he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #115739 - 28/09/08 02:34 PM

Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #116111 - 02/10/08 01:13 PM

Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it
CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY.

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming,
just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #116377 - 06/10/08 02:34 PM

Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #116389 - 07/10/08 12:47 AM

Ed- cool pics. What's the best load for a stock 210 Savage, factory barrel with a plastic case? I'd suggest with a solid slug at 600gr. or round ball about 545gr?

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #116836 - 13/10/08 02:05 PM

Stock 210 load- 600gr Dixie hard lead, 3" case,
use 75Gr of 4227gr for about 1500 fps.Now if heavier
barrel you can do more or if chamberlenthened do more.
Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of
wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #116974 - 15/10/08 01:01 PM

RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.





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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #117028 - 16/10/08 03:18 AM

Thanks for that info, Ed. I'll start with 60gr. in the 2 3/4" plastic case, w/round ball as I remember you suggested much earlier.

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Daryl


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #117080 - 17/10/08 01:08 AM

Quote from Ed - "Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder."
:
: In case some readers put faith in foot pounds per square inch, that 1 ounce bullet travelling at 2,300fps developes 5,140 fpe. That should handle deer within the shotgun's smoothbore accuracy range, shouldn't it?

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #117155 - 18/10/08 09:06 AM

Yup! even the big ones.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: bigdog]
      #117166 - 18/10/08 03:17 PM

Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with
no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for
powder.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #117172 - 18/10/08 06:39 PM

More room fore powder One would think a 8 gauge 3,5" case would hold all the powder that one could ever want. When you are done testing i will build one 8 gauge, a double jones with hammers offcourse.

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #117357 - 21/10/08 08:51 PM

We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore
Prohunter..Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #117698 - 26/10/08 04:20 PM

Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118139 - 02/11/08 11:37 AM

Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118140 - 02/11/08 01:15 PM

I'm surprised the .50's fit properly. The walls of the 'sabot' are very thick. I think I'd rather have a 12 bore slug fired from a 12 bore. Why cut power and turn it into a .50 Sharps shooting light bullets?

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #118223 - 03/11/08 04:06 PM

A lot of shotgun only hunters want fast light bullets, with less recoil.
And a little longer range. Still will have good ME.Sabot speeds below.
I like 600gr Dixie and but test everything so guys know about them.
Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118228 - 03/11/08 08:14 PM



I kinda like my Remington SP-10, especially with 3 1/2" slug loads Truly a big bore with lots of firepower. I have two and one is still new in the box. Any takers?

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #118260 - 04/11/08 04:31 AM

I think I very much prefer the NEF. TC has alwasy had difficulty with screw and ovetail depths - getting them too deep is a common TC problem- modern or muzzleloading guns allthe way back to 1970. Seems things haven't changed much with them. The warrantees are great - goos thing cause almost all their guns need warrantee work. I guess I seem to not like TC very much. Sorry - just my opinion, of course.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #118553 - 08/11/08 02:28 PM

All the youngsters her just love the Encore 12ga.
I just filled up dovetail cuts and put nut for
forearm screws on the top of the filled area.Relieved
a little plastic in forearm, screwed it on, works good....
See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed





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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118568 - 08/11/08 08:44 PM

Hi Ed , Thank you for all your cool posts ! how does the Browning A Bolt stack up againts the Savage 210 , for strenght & use ?

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #118697 - 11/11/08 04:40 PM

THe A-Bolt is almost as strong, handle all of our long
case loads. Wish they weren't so pricy. They look nice
and have nice style, like a big bore African gun.
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118716 - 12/11/08 03:23 AM

I can't see the .5 brass cases failing, unless they are allowed to get too brittle at the case mouth.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #118961 - 16/11/08 04:27 PM

What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up
and the shape of it when starting out.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118981 - 17/11/08 03:41 AM

Ed - I was sent some 525gr. Lyman's along with some wads and 9.3" bullets for testing, from a friend in Alberta. As yet, I've not tried the Lyman slugs, but have some loaded for testing in 2 3/4" hulls. They are cast of WW metal and weigh 506gr. Av. They do fit perfectly inside a Red WW field wad. From the looks of them, I think I may also have to buy that mould for my own use. They might 'convert' me from round balls for my camp 'bear' gun - might! The round balls in WW metal are almost unstopable and somewhat heaveir than the Lyman slug. Alan M. says the Lyman is very accurate in his side by side 12 as in 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It certainly looks promising and is very easily loaded.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #119164 - 19/11/08 04:05 PM

That's nice thing about them, easy to load and in the cup they
don't lead the barrel. Slug and wad don't look like much
but lot of guys say they are accurate.
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #119213 - 20/11/08 06:52 AM

Ed- can you post a picture of the bolt? Does it have locking lugs on it - 1 or 2?. I'm assuming the bolt cuttout in the action itself is one locking lug. Is it the only lug?

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #119483 - 25/11/08 04:36 PM

The Savage has three front locking lugs and if action was
built thicker you could go BMG pressures.Pics of bolt
are earlier in the thread.
Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (25/11/08 04:39 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #119506 - 26/11/08 05:14 AM

3!!! - wow - some skookum action for a pelter. Cool. guess I'll have to pick one up sometime (Christmas present to myself?) for a dedicated RB or Lyman slug gun.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #120304 - 04/12/08 02:05 PM

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #120738 - 09/12/08 07:30 PM

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #120816 - 10/12/08 04:57 PM

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121088 - 13/12/08 04:41 PM

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121456 - 18/12/08 03:37 PM

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121749 - 21/12/08 03:35 PM

Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC,
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121986 - 23/12/08 04:55 PM

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed





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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122008 - 23/12/08 09:56 PM

I must say that i envy your comittment to the project, there must be some hours behind it.
Ceep it up

Didnt you mention a 8 bore a while ago?

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #122267 - 25/12/08 03:27 PM

Yes we have experimented building a 8 bore on a
bolt action Enfield and now are setting up one on a NEF
heavy barreled 10 ga, by boring it out.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122492 - 28/12/08 02:24 PM

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run one
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122800 - 01/01/09 07:29 PM

Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously.
I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123065 - 05/01/09 06:22 PM

28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123112 - 06/01/09 05:05 AM

Although I put little if any faith in paper energies, 6,761.77fpe from a Mossy bolt action shotgun! - now that's impressive.

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #123819 - 12/01/09 01:37 PM

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture
earlier in thread with the porting holes.
Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
You see two in wadcups on the right.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow
base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed
to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed





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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123852 - 12/01/09 09:28 PM

Good looking slug, Ed. I wonder how many 5 gallon pails of water it will penetrate. That's pretty light for an 8, isn't it? should be able to get it really trucking. I would think you might want to try WW hardened. 460F or thereabouts for 1 hour then quenched in a bucket of tap water - something soft on the bottom, let sit for 12 hours or more & they should come up to brinel 30 approx. I Suspect you've done this before.

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #123868 - 13/01/09 01:21 AM

Daryl,
I have shot the lighter 20 gauge slugs,(350 grains) through three, one gallon water filled milk jugs and into the fourth one, which split and released the slug, which rolled off the table and onto the ground. It had expanded to the diameter of a U.S quarter and is the only one of these slugs I ever managed to retreave intact. Bob H.



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #123922 - 13/01/09 10:39 AM

Thanks for chiming in here, Birdhunter - Were they pure lead or cast from WW metal? The expanded bullet pictured looks to be harder than pure, but softer than 12 or 13 brinel, which is what I get with our WW's. At that diameter, I'd expect more cracks - and not as large an expansion.

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #124869 - 22/01/09 04:51 PM

The slugs I got are 30 to 1 lead/tin mix and seem harder than
WW slugs. As for the 8ga I may make nose little heavier,
but those proportions are like the 12ga one, which most folks
says shoot easy and fast and accurate. So I want same for 8ga,
without going over pressure in the barrel we are redoing.

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" cards and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125173 - 26/01/09 06:58 PM

Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting.
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125531 - 31/01/09 06:13 PM

Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed



PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up there it will help.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125808 - 04/02/09 04:28 PM

Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to sabots unless I put a card
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
target straight. Ed



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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125889 - 05/02/09 01:36 PM

Good pictures as usual, Ed.

I am at a loss to understand why anyone would restrict & reduce the power of a gun by shootng an undersized projectile. Now, shooting sabots from a 120mm cannon, I see that and it certainly has merit. To reduce a wonderful .73 cal. rifle to a .50 or .54, well, I just don't understand the logic - unless it's just an execise in testing 'something' - that I understand.

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #125913 - 05/02/09 08:51 PM

Daryl,
Among others, one of the reasons to use a sabot is to reduce friction (pressure) between slug and barrel, especially when using other than soft lead slugs. Another reason is to "adjust" free space between slug and barrel, since bore diameter of shotgun barrels vary quite a lot, especially smoothbore ones.
In the brass slugs we make, sabot is mandatory and less friction results in higher velocity, as well.
Lefteris.
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: elvas]
      #125921 - 05/02/09 11:06 PM

Oh, I understand with solid projectiles, reducing the diameter slightly to allow some sort of barrier - I just don't see using grossly undersized bullets in a large bore and thus reducing power.

The Lyman sabot moulded slug is a good idea - the 'slug' is only reduced to about .68 cal. from .73, but to grossly reduce the diameter to the .50's is to lose a great deal of killing and stopping power.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #126251 - 08/02/09 02:17 PM

Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job.

Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot. I will use
heavier built REMs as they are 70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots,
no resizing, with hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #126314 - 09/02/09 03:18 AM

"QUOTE" Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job. "QUOTE"

Yes - I am aware of what they are doing - I just don't understand - well, never mind -
A 400 to 500 gr. .50 cal slug should have a 24" twist or perhaps a bit faster, but not needed. Apparently, PacNor makes a 22" twist 12 bore barrel. I wanted an 80-85" twist with 5-6 thou rifling, but am having difficulty finding one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #126785 - 12/02/09 06:22 PM

My pacnor barrels are 1 to 20-24, but up to about 440gr for me
in sabot they seem to stabilize in NEF with 1 to 35".
Speed is the difference as RPMs are faster so they
are still stable. I'm sure they'd wobble if I shot them
at only 1200 or so. As far as the real slow twist barrels
look up the guys specializing in black powder guns,
and also check with Dixie Gunworks.

I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage
in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #126823 - 13/02/09 04:12 AM

600gr. cast bullet through two steel 1/4" plates with 2" of wood between - impressive indeed!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #127268 - 16/02/09 03:03 PM

Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at
real high speed, and plates were mild steel.
Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they
all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (16/02/09 03:05 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #127730 - 22/02/09 05:18 PM

Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed



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empirevr
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #127740 - 22/02/09 07:12 PM

Hello Ed

Thanks for the link by the way will get back to you asap.

How is the 12ga fh double idea coming along???

Kind regards

Ben


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: empirevr]
      #128366 - 28/02/09 04:15 PM

Rob and RIP on AR forums are doing doubles.
I haven't the resources to do one.

The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help
RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs
in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They
can be bored out and fitted to anything.
I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and
10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed

--------------------
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128367 - 28/02/09 04:50 PM

Good shooting - the real test is 50 to 60 yards. With well balanced loads, smoothbore will stack them at 25 yards, just as will smoothbored long-guns, like the fusils and single barreled fowlers both with round balls and black powder. Something happens past 25 yards, but tends are good.

Most well bored guns, modern, that is, will hold onto 3 1/2" to 5" at 50 and that's good accuracy. I've heard of more 12's printing closer to 3 1/2" than not. I think that's one heck of a good bullet - cast hard and possibly quenched out of the mould (careful) or hardened with the hot oven and water quench method.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #128518 - 02/03/09 05:32 PM

The three slug loads tested above are real
light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call
them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are
light for the bore size. Here is picture of
the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup
loses its petals going out the barrel, but
hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman
in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit
nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in
cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it
acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128566 - 03/03/09 04:14 AM

Ed - the 10 bore load looks like a steel shot wad =- perhaps needed to get the thickness to fit the slug. Have you tried them in a regular shot wad? Paper patching (masking tape) might bring up the diameter to fit the cup well.

I used masking tape for patching in my brothers' .45 3 1/4" Sharps with very much undersized bullet and it shot well indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #128735 - 04/03/09 04:01 PM

Daryl- yes it is a 10ga steel shot wad with the Lyman
slug in it. A 12ga thin wadcup with same slug fits 12ga
which is what most guys use that Lyman for. The 10ga
thick steel cups are only a dime so it is easier than
trying to increase diameter of thin cups.In this way
we can use same slug for 12 and 10 ga.
Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel.
In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged.
Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128952 - 07/03/09 03:05 PM

Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129000 - 08/03/09 08:26 AM

Ed - your last post brings up another question related to another fellow's experimentation on this site - or maybe it was gunboards.
About the 10 bore opened to 8 bore - - have you thought of boring all but about 3" of the 10 bore out to 8, then rifling the 'choke' left behind? 8 bore paradox!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (08/03/09 08:27 AM)


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #129364 - 12/03/09 03:53 PM

Daryl- That should work with right reamers and tools to do it.
Rifling buttons or a cutter that big, I can't find reasonable.
I was thinking of screwing a rifled choke in the stepped up area
on the end that I now use as internal brake expansion area, with
the ports..But I like the ports and the hollowbase slugs should be
75yd accurate based on preliminary tests with them. And the Lyman style
slug that I will get mold done for, will be better yet.

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo
outline.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (12/03/09 03:54 PM)


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129845 - 17/03/09 04:01 PM

Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed




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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129888 - 18/03/09 03:53 AM

I'm 'coming' into a Mossy with extra rifled tube.
Do you know if the Lyman slugs shoot from the 35" or 36" twist?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #129927 - 18/03/09 01:30 PM

Fellas say they do ok.Most brag about accuracy.
I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130079 - 20/03/09 11:30 AM

Yowee, Ed, I think you are my new hero!! This an amazing thread to read.

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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: richla]
      #130093 - 20/03/09 01:58 PM

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130127 - 21/03/09 02:44 AM

Hmmm - reloader #17, eh - probably see that here in a few years. Guess I'm stuck with H4227 and shotgun powders.

What are you guys paying for those M110 Savages? Here, they're listed around $495.00 - bit much for an action - but not much else in a repeater around that will handle those long cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #130209 - 22/03/09 09:47 AM

Isn't the alliant powders sold there.
You should be able to order it, as around
here Hodgdon is the trucking distributor.
210 Savages are up to 550 bucks in places.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130527 - 26/03/09 02:24 PM

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just pour case full and shoot with lighter slugs.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130904 - 30/03/09 06:10 PM

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed






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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131209 - 02/04/09 03:38 PM

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed



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Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131620 - 06/04/09 02:25 PM

Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131665 - 07/04/09 01:21 AM

THAT load makes for a 12 Bore From Hell for sure. RIPP - hope if doesn't put you "under". Bet it's fun to watch someone shoot it. Bit much for this old guy. Still havne't beenout to try the new 835 Mossy with Lyman slugs. One of these days.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #132170 - 13/04/09 04:02 PM

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132599 - 17/04/09 01:50 PM

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132647 - 18/04/09 01:56 AM

I suspect that 500gr. is being punched out of a 22" or faster twist?

That is power - 2,550fps with 500gr.! OWWW and WOW - and from a rifled shotgun! If of standard 35" ro 36" twist, I'd be staying with something lighter than 360gr. and probably attempt to get an accurate load with the 300gr. Nosler - that should work about the best wouldn't it?

Looks like I'm going to have to come up with a box of 3.5" plastic and break them down to do some testing. My torn shoulder is hurting already.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #132805 - 20/04/09 03:28 AM

His savage is 1 to 22 twist I think, but BPI tested
500gr in sabot in guns with 1 to 35 and 1 to 28 twist, and got
good accuracy with no signs of tumbling.Of course it
is the bullet rpms, so faster bullet needs less twist.
The point of Bret's and my testing is to find best seals.And
this seal and wad combo we found is much better, than
cards and wads or other plastic seals. And they cost
no more than others, and the sabots are reasonable too. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (20/04/09 03:35 AM)


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132863 - 20/04/09 06:10 PM

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #133548 - 26/04/09 02:17 PM

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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450_366
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #133557 - 26/04/09 05:53 PM

Well that one doesent have a lot of chamber thickness.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #133581 - 26/04/09 11:30 PM

Reminisent of some of the old 12 bore singles - way back when.
Yeah- it certainly looks thin for higher pressures, but probably anything to 20,000 would be OK - just an offhanded guess on pressure

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #133971 - 30/04/09 12:56 PM

It is heavy enough. It is .145" thickness at chamber.
I've fired factory kiln loads with 1000gr slugs fine.
The SB2 NEF is built strong. And the kiiln gun plastic
cases are as strong as most brass cases, so they take
part of the strain also...
Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #134012 - 01/05/09 12:34 AM

Hmm - belted 11 bore - Parker made quite a number of normal 11 bore doubles - of course, ammo is no longer available for them.

Interesting case, Ed. Yes - quite heavy and suitable for pressures above 25,000 - in a gun that is also safe for those pressures.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #134302 - 03/05/09 02:32 PM

Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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