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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70630 - 01/02/07 11:46 PM

Hey Ed, please don't take our lack of replies as a lack of interest, or a lack of praise for your effort and enthusiasm on the jumbo 12.

We're just speechless...!

Keep it coming!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #70978 - 08/02/07 06:06 AM

Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the
block.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #71480 - 14/02/07 03:40 PM

Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is
28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag
barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one
on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still
will fire shorter cases..Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #71485 - 14/02/07 04:32 PM

Man, I gotta agree with Marrakai on this. This is textbook how-to stuff.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (14/02/07 04:33 PM)


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 475Guy]
      #72301 - 23/02/07 04:52 AM

Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic cases with small primers. They don't fire
dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have
VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries
about getting our cases shortened for strength
and they want to put in small primer.
They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but
must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders,
if they are used by themselves. Any slower powders, a fast shotgun starter powder
is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr
of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested
in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #72742 - 28/02/07 12:49 PM

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #73448 - 09/03/07 05:17 AM

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the rtop rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74130 - 18/03/07 03:54 PM

Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't
expand to much to resize.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74409 - 23/03/07 01:09 PM

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #74625 - 26/03/07 11:24 AM

My Zabala 3 1/2" 12 guage was just reproofed to 3500 bar when it went in after being sleeved to 450#2 NE if that helps for a heavy action.

Regards


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Bramble]
      #75153 - 31/03/07 01:47 PM

Yes that's what I want to do also go smaller with
28ga and my 510 so as to run 50k pressures.Zabalas are nice.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #76194 - 11/04/07 02:28 PM

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #76589 - 15/04/07 01:56 PM

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #77202 - 22/04/07 12:16 PM

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #77689 - 30/04/07 01:18 PM

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect
ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #78085 - 06/05/07 11:02 AM

Tested 730 gr with 7383,Perfect ignition.
Plastic 3" cases, different brands.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps. Extracts easy.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79033 - 20/05/07 12:43 PM

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79562 - 29/05/07 01:32 PM

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #79564 - 29/05/07 06:14 PM

Quote:

Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage




Whaa...! 2700 fps with 750gr projectile?!
That's over twelve thousand foot-pounds!

Oops! Sorry...! Gotta go change my shorts...!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #79775 - 02/06/07 01:09 PM

Marrakai- That's the same as max I got with
730 gr hardened Dixie lead slug. Finally a
brass solid I really like as far as being able
to load it same as lead or soft jacketed.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #80195 - 09/06/07 01:44 AM

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #80821 - 17/06/07 12:49 PM

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #81215 - 24/06/07 11:35 AM

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was
annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
The slow powders in large diameter cases
needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. This concept has beeen
used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or
blow out the rims on regular plastic cases
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter
that can take high full load pressures,
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,
in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #81510 - 30/06/07 03:29 AM

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that works with
real heavy slugs also. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #82033 - 08/07/07 12:46 PM

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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