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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62433 - 13/09/06 10:58 AM

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62543 - 16/09/06 02:06 PM

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball andRE-7 they look good.
Have got loads with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (01/10/06 03:05 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62680 - 19/09/06 02:30 PM

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #62822 - 21/09/06 02:08 PM

Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in the NEF.And 100 gr RE-7 in
1887 and we are keeping it down in original barreled
1887 due to plastic cases expanding just
ahead of the rim in two spots due to
extractor cutouts. New barrel will solve
that as we will make cutouts different.
Up to 140 gr RE-7 in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,
highbase, lowbase, etc. Lowbase extracts easiest.
You who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (01/10/06 03:12 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #63242 - 30/09/06 01:25 PM

Tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #63658 - 06/10/06 01:28 PM

I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64018 - 14/10/06 03:00 PM

I got the hammer on 87 beefed up to fire big primers.
Still testing plastic and turned cases in 87.
We are testing small primers with 10gr starter powder(Blue
Dot) and RE-7 and 15.Plastic cases max is 90gr RE-7 with
10 gr starter, turned brass case 110gr RE-7 10 gr starter.
WE had to go to starter powder as we was getting
delayed ignition and squib loads.
Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter powder ... A big find. IE, we can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64644 - 25/10/06 05:06 PM

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #64840 - 29/10/06 01:29 AM

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65025 - 01/11/06 03:13 PM

I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65215 - 03/11/06 12:26 PM

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (03/11/06 04:22 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65320 - 05/11/06 09:01 AM

I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65808 - 13/11/06 04:33 PM

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
tham our 4759 loads.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #65821 - 13/11/06 10:28 PM

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Makes my eyes water just reading your posts.....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #66264 - 03/12/06 10:05 AM

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #66667 - 09/12/06 04:51 PM

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #67273 - 17/12/06 03:30 PM

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #67633 - 21/12/06 03:02 PM

In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #68419 - 31/12/06 03:25 PM

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.
On the scaleup model solved the hard cocking
problem by usinf NEF hammer mounted in a
lengthened breech block. It pivots h\behind
the toggle pin and is taller so it cocks easy
even though it has doubled the springs
to fire big primers.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69218 - 10/01/07 10:57 AM

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69595 - 16/01/07 05:11 PM

Founf info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2699
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #69617 - 17/01/07 12:58 AM

A SxS double 12GA FH ?!

NOW you're talking!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Marrakai]
      #70090 - 24/01/07 04:27 PM

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70352 - 28/01/07 08:51 PM

Double pumper 870 big bore. 20 shots
Karl would love this with 600 gr,
4759 loads, if they'd let him have one.
Fires both or one at a time.
Classified on THR.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #70615 - 01/02/07 11:32 AM

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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