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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #214723 - 16/08/12 10:53 AM

For you folks in Australia, Bertram is
getting ready to make the run of my 585HE
cases. Would there be a bunch of you
interested in a group buy, of the cases
right direct from him. If so, no time like now,
and he will be able to make more runs later,
whenever needed, as the production of my
cases works along with continuing orders
of another cartridge he has to make every
month or two.. I can't ship economically to you
from US, when you there can get from him
for 3 bucks US each. And Manson Reamers
here in US can supply reamers, CH4D in US
has the die sets. It is perfect case for
bolt guns and falling blocks, and I even have
it in break actions. A light load is 750 gr
at 22-2300, and any action a 505 Gibbs
fits into will do 585HE. And I have loads all
tested, developed. I plan on using the rest
of my days making this case the best and
most used 577/585 big bore. I'm also posting this
message for African and Canadian shooters.
Time to step out and
join the fun......ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #215519 - 26/08/12 01:23 PM

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #217346 - 29/09/12 10:50 AM

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.



I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #218584 - 29/10/12 03:03 PM

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #218991 - 04/11/12 05:37 AM

Good news, We got a few samples from the first production run of 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace,
which was all within the .270" length minus .004".specs I asked for.

He made part of run, about a 1000 without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Over 4000 total. Cases only 3 bucks each,
if you get in on the first bulk shipment right away..Still time
before he ships.I want as many bulk freight shipped as we can.
Got money in for about 1000 so far. The few he shipped by mail to test,
cost $1.50 postage each, so that is why we want to get the numbers in the
much cheaper bulk freight order as big as possible.Folks in
AUS order direct from him.

I tested some moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti
break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Cases fell out.
Real tough built cases, Fired couple 650gr at 3000 in Enfield and extracted
ok, and resized ok back down to specs.About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot military sniper loads
that run real high average pressures.So maybe we have a winner.He will be making
these Cheytac case runs regular so we can get our cases made anytime
we get money built up for a run.Here are pictures.

First is old on left and new on the right sectioned,
showing how heavy built the new cases are, as well as
Cheytacs he makes that has same base inside.Our 585
is belted and he uses different header, than for the
Cheytac/Gibbs bases one which uses a header
with no belt.



Second is top view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
He made a 1000 without headstamp and over 3000 with stamp.

Third side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. Notice how uniform belts are.

4th is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe have a military use, saving brass and
use smaller actions than bmg and 14.5 Russ.
With about the same power as a bmg. Ed








Here is the breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar.
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.




--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (04/11/12 05:59 AM)


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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
Posts: 70
Loc: NewEngland
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #219749 - 17/11/12 11:43 AM

Ed,

Ripp's thread on Montana Rifle Company got me to notice the low price of the big 505Gibbs PH rifle. Wow! Just over $2k for a Gibbs. Beats CZ by almost a grand.

Have you considered working with Montana Rifle Company to get some version of the 585 offered in that $2K safari rifle? I know you gave them a lot of support during the times many on that other forum were complaining about the slow development time for the PH action. A nasty crowd over there. Well the action is done. Now a very reasonably price complete rifle built around that action. It would be nice to have a source of loaded ammo. Superior? I would assume from a manufacturing point of view you would want the rim exactly to 505 specs. I like the 3" case version, but; I am certain that a 3.25 chamber would not hurt anything and be more flexible. I would be nice if there was offering a practical hunting load like 750gr @2100 fps, in addition to a bragging rights (12,000? ft-lb)load. A level I and II choice.

The trick really would be for Montana to agree to chamber any version of your 585 for ~$2K in a no frill package. Ammo availability might promote sales.

I have to agree a bbl band seems almost mandatory these days. Even low cost Ruger 375's went that route with a little complaining. You might pass that along if you have an opportunity.


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: fourbore]
      #219805 - 19/11/12 11:21 AM

After a bunch of cases are here I will talk to them,
I didn't know about complete Gibbs rifle build, Maybe
get the new Jamison Co to make cases and loaded rounds.,
Also plan in future approaching Ruger and Hornady
who work together, to start with #1, easiest to do first.

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #219812 - 19/11/12 01:08 PM

Good group, Ed. What speed & what weight of minnie? Slight yaw showing on all of the holes-mostly on the bottom 3.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #219939 - 21/11/12 03:18 PM

Ajay shot those, I think it was 450 gr or so Minie.
Going about 1600. Quite good considering he is
using plain old thin sided shotcups. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #221032 - 06/12/12 02:16 PM

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.



Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..



Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.



Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #222740 - 02/01/13 05:32 PM

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.



Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #223597 - 14/01/13 01:17 PM

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.



Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up



Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #224555 - 31/01/13 02:51 PM

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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gryphon
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #224571 - 01/02/13 05:32 AM

Geezuz those copper pills look like rocket ships!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: gryphon]
      #224584 - 01/02/13 10:53 AM

.5's??

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #224597 - 01/02/13 07:02 PM

Those boat tail bullets are 30cal in 45
caliber sbaots. Look big due to closeup.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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gryphon
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #224599 - 01/02/13 09:25 PM

And here I am thinking they are more of your monsters Ed

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: gryphon]
      #226007 - 26/02/13 06:05 PM

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.



Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1512
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #226066 - 27/02/13 06:33 PM

Tell me more about that '87, please?

One in .70-150 would be too much fun.

--------------------
.


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Ash]
      #226169 - 01/03/13 04:33 AM

He had a short real heavy barrel put on, stock checkered and
carved, great bluing job.I didn't do any of that, I'm helping get
the best loads with short brass RMC cases. He had it worked on to
feed short 2 5/8 brass cases and crimped 3" plastic cases from
the magazine, I got short case load that gets 600gr bullet
to 1900 for him.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #226187 - 01/03/13 08:57 AM



With a 12 bore ball weighing 583gr. (.730" - pure) along with the copper tubing, probably .032" wall along with the steel screw, the weight would be over 600gr. - no slouch and an excellent idea.

I've a feeling I should try this in the rifled Mossberg pump. If a person could find some 5/8" ID pipe, it should run about 11/16" (687") OD. With a wad centered, tube filled and screwed tightly to the ball, the base wad would obturate to seal the powder gasses behind it and take the rifling as would a groove diameter ball (.724" in my 12 bore Mossberg), thus should shoot quite well. Length could be adjusted for best accuracy in whatever twist happens to be in the gun - ie: 35" or whatever you have. The copper tubing (or aluminum - some comes in standard ID measurements, while most copper is outside diameter) would not ride on the rifling at all, kind of a wasp waist bullet, reducing pressure and allowing higher velocities, if deemed necessary.
It is amazing what and how deeply a hardened 12 bore ball will actually penetrate if driven 1,500fps or faster.
According to Samuel Baker, through and through an elephant's head, ie: 'exit'. Sounds deep enough to me.

Thanks for this thread, Ed - MUCH food for thought with most of the thought already spelled out and tested.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ash
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Posts: 1512
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #226627 - 08/03/13 09:44 PM

Do you think a 10 gauge with slug style bullets would work in a greener GP? Or is it too big to fit?

Thanks Ed!

--------------------
.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Ash]
      #226956 - 13/03/13 11:16 AM

A full length 3.5" 10 ga case will bind up going
in and out of the action. Even have tight fit with long 12ga.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Ash
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #226996 - 14/03/13 08:40 PM

Bugger, was hoping for a quick and cheap way into a 10 gauge rifle.

Thanks Ed.

--------------------
.


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Ash]
      #227031 - 15/03/13 04:41 PM

I love the Greener and I have my 585HE in one, but
I wish they were bigger with thicker sides,
for real big stuff.

Well you can set up inexpensive in other guns.Go smoothbore
and experiment and get some 50-70yd accurate smoothbore
10ga setups with the BPI VP100 wadcups and hollowbase
69cal Minie bullets. And then get the heavy bull barrel NEF
10ga goose gun, the newer SB2 models.The long barrel is
best with hairy loads They are alloy frame, heat treated strong
and will take our slow powder loads of about 2000 fps.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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