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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #186821 - 29/07/11 03:10 PM

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #187189 - 03/08/11 04:31 PM

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #187889 - 13/08/11 02:16 PM

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #187907 - 14/08/11 03:32 AM

Ed- is that '87 one of the modern re-makes, or an original? I understand that it has a modern or custom barrel - what make, twist, size, groove dia.(actual .585")?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
Posts: 70
Loc: NewEngland
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #188009 - 16/08/11 06:52 PM

That 585 belted case (from the left next to the 06) has same bolt face as 505Gibbs and will fit into unmodified CZ550 magnum bolt action. It will feed from a staggered magazine just like the gibbs in the CZ. Looks and works like a scale up 458winmag/Lott just fatter. And the same idea as the 500 A square. The Lott and 500A2 two of the modern best big bores. The 585HE makes three. A very clean and simple design, with no rebate, no problems at all. Perfection. The 577/585 handles some really big bullets and wild heavy loads or can still be loaded in at a practical level for a realistic hunting rifle with 577NE plus loads. That practical option, without a muzzle brake or 16-18 pound gun weight seems a real plus to me.

It is IMHO, the best in class, best of all the over 50 designs. No compromise and quite practical if you can say that about any over 50.

Between 50 and 58 caliber there are only odd ball diameters and over 58 will not fit properly in the CZ550, or requires major rebated rim and single column feed. The 58 bore is simply the best fit.

Just an opinion, but I am big fan. IMHO - Ed really has a potential winner in this one.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: fourbore]
      #188043 - 17/08/11 02:36 PM

FBourbore-- THanks for bragging up my 585HE. It is great and
is perfect in the PH also. And great in many other
styles of actions.

Daryl- Yes that is the modern steel one.
Barrel 30 inches, groove .585"- 1-22 twist is best.
Even with heavy bullets the extra speed we have,
gives plenty of spin for stable flight.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (17/08/11 02:38 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #188261 - 21/08/11 04:30 PM

Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- BBK 1.32" at breech- CBC 1.18" breech
1.070 muzzles.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (21/08/11 07:51 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #188608 - 26/08/11 03:21 PM

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #189257 - 05/09/11 02:41 PM

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #189258 - 05/09/11 04:23 PM

Mate,

I continue to ask myself the question of "Why". Other than from a hobbyist perspective I am yet to receive an answer.

regards


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: kamilaroi]
      #190000 - 16/09/11 03:01 PM

The why is to make bigbores with big power,
in affordable ways, in innovative ways.


Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #190474 - 22/09/11 05:49 PM

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #190920 - 28/09/11 05:19 PM

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.

Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-







--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (29/09/11 03:29 PM)


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #190946 - 29/09/11 02:32 AM

Hello Ed
I am looking for an affordable 12 guage SXS that I can cut back to 24"barrels and regulate with US-S 570 slugs that I have on the way. Do you know if there are any past or present factory offerings that had barrels heavy enough to handle your reloader 17 loads. Up here in Canada if you want affordable you have to order over the net and take what you get so any help would be appreciated. I know i can get my hands on a good used brno,aya,simson or sauer but they are in warehouses and help is minimal at best.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #190973 - 29/09/11 10:35 AM

The side lock BRNO - tradeex has some good price, is probably the strongest action-wise. Many double rifles have been made on them now. Monoblock strength and current barrel strength is the stickler.

I'm going to try some 4759 loads in my pump gun.

Smoke - did you received the .710" balls and wads?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #190978 - 29/09/11 12:19 PM

I sure did Daryl. Havnt had a chance to load any yet as I'm in the thick of trying to kill a bear again with my boregun. Got some Ballistic products dangerous game slugs that I'm trying and they regulated at 5" at 75 paces with 45 grns 4756 in cheddite hulls right off the bat so I'm stuck there till I kill the big fellow that's been toying with me for two years. He's 6" across front pad so shoul make 7' bear. Got some US-S 570 coming from Greece for testing but my husky is overbore at .735 and these slugs don't like over.732" tubes so looking at those Brno's on tradex but would like heavy tubes if I can find em. Thanx again Daryl.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #190997 - 29/09/11 03:27 PM

That is problem with thin barrels on doubles and slower
RE17..... I'd go no slower than IMR 4759 in
all the double 12s that I've looked at.
I've haven't seen any with barrels as
heavy as regular Savage 210s or Mossy 695s,
let alone approaching NEF Ultra thickness.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #191000 - 29/09/11 04:45 PM

Any load advise for 4759 in 2 3/4" or 3" chambers? Thanks For your research Ed.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #191440 - 07/10/11 04:41 PM

Well with 600gr slugs use 80gr 4759 in modern light barrels,
and in barrels .90"- to .94" muzzle use 90 gr.

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Posts: 19555
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #191462 - 08/10/11 03:48 AM

Ed - I mic'd my Mossberg M835's rifled tube at .724" groove diameter, .712" bore.

Merely FYI

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #192014 - 17/10/11 04:19 PM

Well then maybe it'll work better with under size BPI sabots.

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #192047 - 18/10/11 01:46 AM

Thinking of buckshot?- does anyone make 'tungsten' buckshot nowadays with all the non-toxic shot laws?

I'm thinking primarily about those US military 12 bore loads using 'hard' shot - the 7mm load for instance - #3 or #4 buck - .28" in tungsten, supposedly went through an issue helmet at 150yards. They initial speeds were in the 1,800fps range, but at 2,400fps to 2,600fps, that's some lethality! Fun testing, too.

I am not suggesting any illegal use - just the old article I remembered from G&A or some other magazine came back to me when I saw those high speed buck loads, Ed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #192757 - 29/10/11 07:27 PM

Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed






--------------------
Ed Hubel


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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: kamilaroi]
      #192765 - 29/10/11 10:10 PM

Quote:

Mate,

I continue to ask myself the question of "Why". Other than from a hobbyist perspective I am yet to receive an answer.

regards




Who cares why. He obviously enjoys what he's doing and many, many find it interesting. I would love 10 bore gun from the old days to play about with. Why, because I can.

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: controlled_feed]
      #192928 - 02/11/11 05:05 PM

Received my us-s slugs from our member Elvas and couldn't be happier. This is a great looking product and I can't wait to send some downrange. Am waiting on a new to me shotgun to modify for use with these slugs. Any updates Ed on the 2 5/8 brass and us-s slugs? By the way fellas Elvas is great to work with and shipping was no problem. Thanx again Elvas.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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