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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: NotSure177]
      #167188 - 04/09/10 01:08 PM

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: NotSure177]
      #167630 - 12/09/10 01:49 PM

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 12-14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (13/09/10 02:44 AM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #167910 - 17/09/10 03:37 PM

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Posts: 627
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #169012 - 06/10/10 01:10 AM

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #169638 - 16/10/10 01:45 AM

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed


--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #169644 - 16/10/10 02:11 AM

The original minnie ball for the (mostly contract) rifled .69 muskets prior to the Civil war, was hollow based of course, .69 cal. and 730gr. If these fit 10 bore wad cups, they should be an accurate bullet of decent size for a rifled 10 bore. Lyman makes the mould, still. I have one, but have not tried any in my .69 rifle as of yet.

The .69's were the most accurate minnie rifles in the arsenal, outshooting for range and accuracy, both the .54's and .58's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #170274 - 26/10/10 02:07 AM

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #170901 - 05/11/10 04:35 AM

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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kamilaroi
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #170904 - 05/11/10 05:44 AM

So Hubel,

Just where will this thread end? A Boyes, panzerfaust, a 20mm antiflugekannone or bigger?

Just asking.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: kamilaroi]
      #171075 - 07/11/10 12:22 PM

Maybe when we get done experimenting, which may be
a while.. And we are already bigger than those with
the start of the 4bore work, later on 2 bore.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #171370 - 12/11/10 06:24 PM

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #172301 - 29/11/10 02:40 PM

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one
gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #172354 - 30/11/10 06:08 AM

What do the 12 bore HP's weigh, Ed? What's their diameter, please?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #172661 - 05/12/10 07:52 PM

The ones BPI has are 375gr and .729" diameter.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #172689 - 06/12/10 04:47 AM

.86oz. very light. My rifled barrel has a .724" groove diameter. I suggest anyone slugging their bores before trying these.

They are VERY interesting projectiles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #173230 - 16/12/10 06:11 PM

Jackets are soft copper, so they'd give some.
Start loads down a little.
The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #173922 - 24/01/11 03:09 AM

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..These 8 and 10 ga slugs with
seal and wads locked on to them are for smooth bore
use. My 10ga and 8ga are smoothbores.

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #173924 - 24/01/11 03:10 AM

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with the heavy slugs or
cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Got a big shop trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #173925 - 24/01/11 03:12 AM

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #175169 - 09/02/11 05:25 PM

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #175187 - 09/02/11 10:35 PM

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description
It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from 16ga wad cups.
Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #175197 - 10/02/11 03:57 AM

Good stuff, as usual Ed. tks. Impressive penetration.

Have you tested something closer to what a normal 12 bore gun like a Mossy pump might do, ie: 500gr. WW Lyman at about 1,600fps to 1,800fps?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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4seventyModerator
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #175214 - 10/02/11 08:39 AM

Ed,
I have to say that this is truely an awesome thread, with ton's of interesting information! Lot's of genuine experience and knowledge here, that's for sure.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 4seventy]
      #175369 - 12/02/11 06:31 AM

Yes we tested 525gr Lyman in wadcup. Savage rifled bbl.
Slow powder 3" loads good for all modern medium weight barrels-

90 gr of 4759 or 4227--- 110gr of RE17.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #175427 - 13/02/11 02:49 AM

tks Ed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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