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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #160850 - 22/05/10 01:26 PM

Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. EDd





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #160993 - 25/05/10 12:53 PM

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #161272 - 01/06/10 12:49 PM

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #161441 - 04/06/10 01:41 PM

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. It has 4 rear bolt lugs.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #161469 - 04/06/10 10:20 PM

Did he bore the 20 mil barrel? I thought 20 mil was about .77 cal. - that's 10 bore. I should know this metric crap - but don't.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #161546 - 06/06/10 04:10 AM

The groove diameter on them is about .820"
so I've heard.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #161606 - 07/06/10 02:05 AM

Cool! - since 8 bore is .835 - didn't think about the groove diameter - DOH!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #161747 - 09/06/10 01:34 PM

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #161788 - 10/06/10 01:51 AM

Impressive

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #162172 - 16/06/10 02:25 PM

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, but he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #162640 - 24/06/10 01:56 AM

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #163220 - 02/07/10 02:50 PM

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.
Picture of the case later.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #163832 - 11/07/10 01:56 PM

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #164055 - 14/07/10 02:04 PM

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #164952 - 25/07/10 01:30 PM

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. 12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot.
Few more guys are around having fun
shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #165632 - 03/08/10 02:05 PM

There are fellas who have and are planning on
doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP,
Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple
years ago by 450 Ackley here on NitroExpress forums. They
need heavy barrel in place of original. It has a rifled
Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an
action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding
slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs.
I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are
strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to
2000 fps...Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #166176 - 13/08/10 12:25 PM

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #166597 - 22/08/10 09:10 AM

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound
further down range......Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19660
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #166634 - 23/08/10 01:45 AM

Quote:

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed






Ed - I aquired a factory rifled Mossberg M835 - unfortunately, it has a 3 1/2" chamber. I've tried some 1,600fps loads in it with round balls in 2 3/4" cases and received a single 1 1/2" hole for 5 shots - but only shot at 30 yards. I was wondering if you'd PM me some of the loads used in the protruding bullet 2 1/2" magtec brass mentioned in the above post. I am tconsidering of starting low and then working to a 3" load (shortened 3 1/2" cases), either rolled crimp or folded. The longer case should be more accurate than using 2 3/4" or 2 1/2", of course.

I have 2, 14 bore moulds at this time, an adjustable one hemispherical nosed 560gr. to 1,000gr. that can be swaged to the Mossey's tight 12 bore that I made for my .69 ML rifle and the 730gr. .69" minnie that can also be altered through swaging to a larger size to fit as necessary.

Also, I have appropriate sized round ball moulds that fit this gun using gas checks as rifling-taking cups in .684 and .710" as well as a larger .724", which is groove size. The gun's 36" twist is more suitable for a slug, even though the round balls seem to shoot well in it.

Sincerely

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #166740 - 24/08/10 02:29 PM

I would say your fortunate to have rifled barrel with
3.5" chamber. You can do so much more in the way
of wads to cushion keeping peak pressures down
and making cases last longer and resize easier.It
means you can load brass cases with protruding
slugs about 3.1 overall, and use the magazine.
So with Magtech 2.5"brass don't cut it off, and with
600gr slugs use 95gr of 4759, 100gr 4227, 140 gr RE17.
And you can use same loads in 3.5" plastic, with roll crimp.
Of course fill space with seals and wads.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (24/08/10 02:33 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #166765 - 25/08/10 12:38 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, Ed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #166845 - 26/08/10 02:01 PM

Got asked about slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #166862 - 27/08/10 12:54 AM

Ed - I understand it is the long pointy high velocity bullets that are disrupted most passing from super sonic to sub-sonic speeds.

The least effected, is a round ball. As the length, shape and speed change, the more they are disrupted.

Case in point, is my RBlock in a heavy barrel .50 Alaskan chambering. With black powder loads being shot over a 200 yard range, they go from super sonic to sub sonic, yet with tang mounted aperture and globed front sight, it shoots better at 200, then at 100 meters using a flat nosed 550gr. bullet. At 100 meters, it runs 1.4 MOA, but at 200 meters, it's down to .7 MOA.(1 1/2" for 5 shots, both ranges - 109yards per 100 meters)

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #166865 - 27/08/10 01:18 AM

But all bullets are down to 1150 fps when starting to go subsonic.
No matter what they were started at.

They have the most disruption(wobble), I understand at the point
of going subsonic and if started like a lot of blunt shotgun slugs
at 1300 they are going through that change at 70-100yds.
After that they settle down and don't wobble so much, but 12ga slug
trajectory, at 1300 slow start, is terrible so most guys don't use them at longer ranges.
Hence the search for speed so they stay supersonic out to 200 yds.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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NotSure177
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Loc: Missouri
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #167079 - 01/09/10 06:58 AM

The wobble is caused by the bullet passing through what is called the transonic range. The range of speeds between the speed at which one point on a body transition from supersonic speed, and the speed at which all points transition from supersonic speed.

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