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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #156361 - 13/03/10 03:48 PM

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Happy Birthday ovny
.375 member


Reged: 19/06/08
Posts: 591
Loc: Spain
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #156463 - 14/03/10 07:38 PM

Hello. Impressive caliber is there a video shot with these weapons? Would be very interesting to see the effects of projectiles and recoil .

Thank you,

Oscar

--------------------
I am Spanish


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19269
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: ovny]
      #156492 - 15/03/10 02:44 AM

Recoil? - nothing to worry about - 700gr. at 3,000fps - easy peasy, for someone other than me!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #156508 - 15/03/10 06:46 AM

We have video on youtube of a 12ga lread slug at
3000 fps blowing up a 6gal pail of water.
Just type in Grandpa's Cannon.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #156849 - 18/03/10 02:51 PM

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #157299 - 24/03/10 02:54 PM

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #157768 - 29/03/10 02:40 PM

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #158159 - 03/04/10 03:24 PM

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #158790 - 12/04/10 03:08 PM

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #158792 - 12/04/10 03:46 PM

Quote:

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed




Lppkinh forward to it

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #159322 - 22/04/10 02:01 PM

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19269
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #159345 - 23/04/10 12:53 AM

Ed - what size is that '4' bore ball? My chart and calculator says a 4 bore round ball weighs 1,750gr.(1/4 of 7,000) At 760gr. it is a lighter 9 bore ball. A 4 bore ball cast from WW metal will weigh in the 1,600gr. range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #159463 - 25/04/10 01:45 PM

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #159794 - 01/05/10 01:53 PM

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19269
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #159805 - 02/05/10 01:03 AM

Ed- what sided ball would make a buckshot load in a 4 bore? That is, 3 or 4 layers of 3 balls that fit the bore in a triangle? There is probably a mathematical equation for figuring that out - it is beyond my match skills.
Just a gues is that .50 cal balls might work, ie: .595". Those would weigh about 182gr. X 9 = 1,638gr.

Sounds about right and what a deer/bear load - or for repelling pirates.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #159808 - 02/05/10 03:29 AM

Quote:

Ed- what sided ball would make a buckshot load in a 4 bore? That is, 3 or 4 layers of 3 balls that fit the bore in a triangle? There is probably a mathematical equation for figuring that out - it is beyond my match skills.
Just a gues is that .50 cal balls might work, ie: .595". Those would weigh about 182gr. X 9 = 1,638gr.

Sounds about right and what a deer/bear load - or for repelling pirates.




Thats a buckshot i would use on game.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Karl
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Reged: 28/05/03
Posts: 83
Loc: South Pacific
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #159878 - 03/05/10 09:29 AM

I think scaling up 12ga/.73 cal with 3 per layer 00 buck(.33cal)(I think it can stack this tight...)
Makes 3x 44/45 cal in a 1" 4 bore. Or 420 grains per layer.
Ed would have better idea but probably at least 5 layers, or 5 ounce/2200gn payload, maybe even 6oz.


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Karl]
      #159892 - 03/05/10 02:26 PM

Three 45cal lead MZ balls near perfect in 1" 4bore
in a triangle layer. 133 grains each. 15 would be good load.
12 would be a higher speed load. 9 would be a super
speed express load. Nine 45cal balls at 27-2900 fps real hairy.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (03/05/10 02:28 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19269
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #159915 - 04/05/10 01:46 AM

Heh, heh - you're thinking of speeds I hadn't considered.

12 balls, 4 layers would give just about 1,600gr. weight, about the same as a single 4 1/2 bore ball would, for a muzzleloader.

Of course, the rifle's action will allow more pressure, higher velocity - and a paper wrap or two around the balls, ie: post-it note paper from a pad might help hold them together a bit longer for better patterns.

Interesting concept.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #159945 - 04/05/10 06:01 PM

The 4bore/ga is smoothbore for now, so
a shot pattern might be fairly good.
The speeds we are talking about are possible
due to the smooth bore and thumbhole stock
and good weight and balance. It is 28 lbs,
thick pad, and ported. For hard shooters a
thumbhole stock is best.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Karl
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Reged: 28/05/03
Posts: 83
Loc: South Pacific
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #159959 - 04/05/10 11:14 PM

I reckon a 50cal or 45 cal ball load like that is a big game crusher.
I'm a big fan of Ed's crazy shotloads and sounds like some like minds posting as well. Smoothbore as rifled will donut the pattern I'd say.
If I knew how I would post a pic of what IED attack 'steelshot' ball bearings do to vehicles at a couple thousand fps...

hey Ed is the gun complete or are you still testing while constructing some parts etc?


Regards,
Karl.


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Karl]
      #159965 - 05/05/10 02:56 AM

I guess I should have said the 'Gun's' action, not the 'rifle's' action. I meant gun.

Since you will be using normal wads, a jug-choke of about .020" will improve patterns and I found in a .44 smoothbore with .005" jug, it didn't hurt RB shooting in the least. Others with jug chokes in muzzleloading 20 bores get good results with round balls and shot.

Should also be easy to make nylon or HDPE sabots for a 1" bore. Slit lengthwise like a BRI sabot, they would expand or split out upon firing to touch the bore itself for straight guidance & release well at the muzzle with a mild cone cut in the nose, like the BRI's.

About any large projecile could be used, I guess - how about 3, .735", 600gr. round balls for a buck-shot load?

That ought to leave a mark on something at 1,500fps to 2,000fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #160047 - 06/05/10 01:30 PM

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.Gun is complete
except extractor, which is getting figured out.
But so far cases just about fall out.

Double 760gr 1" ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19269
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #160065 - 07/05/10 12:48 AM

Hardened rather than pure lead would make ideal hard cover penetrators at that speed, Ed.
A slightly hardened 15 or 14 bore ball, small in comparrison to your 10 bore ball, driven at the low speed of 1,400fps will penetrate "Through and Through" an (Indian) elephant's head.

Solid concrete blocks are fun to shoot with hardened balls at descent speed. i reduced one to rubble with 1 shot from my 14 bore rifle. The block was 14" X 12" X 4" thick. The largest chunk was about 3" in diameter. I still have the ball as it was laying on the ground amidst the rubble.

At an initial 2,300fps, WOW!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #160381 - 13/05/10 03:03 PM

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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