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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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hubel458
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Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #130209 - 22/03/09 09:47 AM

Isn't the alliant powders sold there.
You should be able to order it, as around
here Hodgdon is the trucking distributor.
210 Savages are up to 550 bucks in places.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130527 - 26/03/09 02:24 PM

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just pour case full and shoot with lighter slugs.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130904 - 30/03/09 06:10 PM

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed






--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131209 - 02/04/09 03:38 PM

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131620 - 06/04/09 02:25 PM

Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #131665 - 07/04/09 01:21 AM

THAT load makes for a 12 Bore From Hell for sure. RIPP - hope if doesn't put you "under". Bet it's fun to watch someone shoot it. Bit much for this old guy. Still havne't beenout to try the new 835 Mossy with Lyman slugs. One of these days.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #132170 - 13/04/09 04:02 PM

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132599 - 17/04/09 01:50 PM

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132647 - 18/04/09 01:56 AM

I suspect that 500gr. is being punched out of a 22" or faster twist?

That is power - 2,550fps with 500gr.! OWWW and WOW - and from a rifled shotgun! If of standard 35" ro 36" twist, I'd be staying with something lighter than 360gr. and probably attempt to get an accurate load with the 300gr. Nosler - that should work about the best wouldn't it?

Looks like I'm going to have to come up with a box of 3.5" plastic and break them down to do some testing. My torn shoulder is hurting already.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
.375 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #132805 - 20/04/09 03:28 AM

His savage is 1 to 22 twist I think, but BPI tested
500gr in sabot in guns with 1 to 35 and 1 to 28 twist, and got
good accuracy with no signs of tumbling.Of course it
is the bullet rpms, so faster bullet needs less twist.
The point of Bret's and my testing is to find best seals.And
this seal and wad combo we found is much better, than
cards and wads or other plastic seals. And they cost
no more than others, and the sabots are reasonable too. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (20/04/09 03:35 AM)

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #132863 - 20/04/09 06:10 PM

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #133548 - 26/04/09 02:17 PM

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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450_366
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #133557 - 26/04/09 05:53 PM

Well that one doesent have a lot of chamber thickness.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #133581 - 26/04/09 11:30 PM

Reminisent of some of the old 12 bore singles - way back when.
Yeah- it certainly looks thin for higher pressures, but probably anything to 20,000 would be OK - just an offhanded guess on pressure

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #133971 - 30/04/09 12:56 PM

It is heavy enough. It is .145" thickness at chamber.
I've fired factory kiln loads with 1000gr slugs fine.
The SB2 NEF is built strong. And the kiiln gun plastic
cases are as strong as most brass cases, so they take
part of the strain also...
Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #134012 - 01/05/09 12:34 AM

Hmm - belted 11 bore - Parker made quite a number of normal 11 bore doubles - of course, ammo is no longer available for them.

Interesting case, Ed. Yes - quite heavy and suitable for pressures above 25,000 - in a gun that is also safe for those pressures.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #134302 - 03/05/09 02:32 PM

Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #134337 - 03/05/09 11:34 PM

I am humbled by your obvious expertise with machinery, the skill and drive you have for these experiments, Ed. Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #134373 - 04/05/09 07:20 AM

Great work Ed , I built a 500NE 3 1/4 on a NEF/H-R action , used full nitro loads a few times , but it was just a bit much for all day use in the recoil department !

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #134826 - 08/05/09 02:16 PM

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #135089 - 11/05/09 01:35 PM

Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #135485 - 16/05/09 06:01 PM

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #135935 - 22/05/09 02:34 PM

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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Sarg
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #135938 - 22/05/09 05:03 PM

Well ! makes my 500NE on the HR look like a pussy !

Great work ED , thank you for posting ,very interesting !

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Sarg]
      #135954 - 22/05/09 11:43 PM

Sarg - or a .577 Nitro! With either the light 650gr. or 750gr., it's a 300 yard deer, moose, elk, big bear, elephant or hippo gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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