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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125808 - 04/02/09 04:28 PM

Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to sabots unless I put a card
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
target straight. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125889 - 05/02/09 01:36 PM

Good pictures as usual, Ed.

I am at a loss to understand why anyone would restrict & reduce the power of a gun by shootng an undersized projectile. Now, shooting sabots from a 120mm cannon, I see that and it certainly has merit. To reduce a wonderful .73 cal. rifle to a .50 or .54, well, I just don't understand the logic - unless it's just an execise in testing 'something' - that I understand.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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elvas
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #125913 - 05/02/09 08:51 PM

Daryl,
Among others, one of the reasons to use a sabot is to reduce friction (pressure) between slug and barrel, especially when using other than soft lead slugs. Another reason is to "adjust" free space between slug and barrel, since bore diameter of shotgun barrels vary quite a lot, especially smoothbore ones.
In the brass slugs we make, sabot is mandatory and less friction results in higher velocity, as well.
Lefteris.
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: elvas]
      #125921 - 05/02/09 11:06 PM

Oh, I understand with solid projectiles, reducing the diameter slightly to allow some sort of barrier - I just don't see using grossly undersized bullets in a large bore and thus reducing power.

The Lyman sabot moulded slug is a good idea - the 'slug' is only reduced to about .68 cal. from .73, but to grossly reduce the diameter to the .50's is to lose a great deal of killing and stopping power.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #126251 - 08/02/09 02:17 PM

Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job.

Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot. I will use
heavier built REMs as they are 70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots,
no resizing, with hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #126314 - 09/02/09 03:18 AM

"QUOTE" Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job. "QUOTE"

Yes - I am aware of what they are doing - I just don't understand - well, never mind -
A 400 to 500 gr. .50 cal slug should have a 24" twist or perhaps a bit faster, but not needed. Apparently, PacNor makes a 22" twist 12 bore barrel. I wanted an 80-85" twist with 5-6 thou rifling, but am having difficulty finding one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #126785 - 12/02/09 06:22 PM

My pacnor barrels are 1 to 20-24, but up to about 440gr for me
in sabot they seem to stabilize in NEF with 1 to 35".
Speed is the difference as RPMs are faster so they
are still stable. I'm sure they'd wobble if I shot them
at only 1200 or so. As far as the real slow twist barrels
look up the guys specializing in black powder guns,
and also check with Dixie Gunworks.

I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage
in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #126823 - 13/02/09 04:12 AM

600gr. cast bullet through two steel 1/4" plates with 2" of wood between - impressive indeed!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #127268 - 16/02/09 03:03 PM

Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at
real high speed, and plates were mild steel.
Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they
all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (16/02/09 03:05 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #127730 - 22/02/09 05:18 PM

Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #127740 - 22/02/09 07:12 PM

Hello Ed

Thanks for the link by the way will get back to you asap.

How is the 12ga fh double idea coming along???

Kind regards

Ben


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: empirevr]
      #128366 - 28/02/09 04:15 PM

Rob and RIP on AR forums are doing doubles.
I haven't the resources to do one.

The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help
RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs
in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They
can be bored out and fitted to anything.
I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and
10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128367 - 28/02/09 04:50 PM

Good shooting - the real test is 50 to 60 yards. With well balanced loads, smoothbore will stack them at 25 yards, just as will smoothbored long-guns, like the fusils and single barreled fowlers both with round balls and black powder. Something happens past 25 yards, but tends are good.

Most well bored guns, modern, that is, will hold onto 3 1/2" to 5" at 50 and that's good accuracy. I've heard of more 12's printing closer to 3 1/2" than not. I think that's one heck of a good bullet - cast hard and possibly quenched out of the mould (careful) or hardened with the hot oven and water quench method.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #128518 - 02/03/09 05:32 PM

The three slug loads tested above are real
light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call
them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are
light for the bore size. Here is picture of
the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup
loses its petals going out the barrel, but
hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman
in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit
nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in
cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it
acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128566 - 03/03/09 04:14 AM

Ed - the 10 bore load looks like a steel shot wad =- perhaps needed to get the thickness to fit the slug. Have you tried them in a regular shot wad? Paper patching (masking tape) might bring up the diameter to fit the cup well.

I used masking tape for patching in my brothers' .45 3 1/4" Sharps with very much undersized bullet and it shot well indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #128735 - 04/03/09 04:01 PM

Daryl- yes it is a 10ga steel shot wad with the Lyman
slug in it. A 12ga thin wadcup with same slug fits 12ga
which is what most guys use that Lyman for. The 10ga
thick steel cups are only a dime so it is easier than
trying to increase diameter of thin cups.In this way
we can use same slug for 12 and 10 ga.
Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel.
In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged.
Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #128952 - 07/03/09 03:05 PM

Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129000 - 08/03/09 08:26 AM

Ed - your last post brings up another question related to another fellow's experimentation on this site - or maybe it was gunboards.
About the 10 bore opened to 8 bore - - have you thought of boring all but about 3" of the 10 bore out to 8, then rifling the 'choke' left behind? 8 bore paradox!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (08/03/09 08:27 AM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #129364 - 12/03/09 03:53 PM

Daryl- That should work with right reamers and tools to do it.
Rifling buttons or a cutter that big, I can't find reasonable.
I was thinking of screwing a rifled choke in the stepped up area
on the end that I now use as internal brake expansion area, with
the ports..But I like the ports and the hollowbase slugs should be
75yd accurate based on preliminary tests with them. And the Lyman style
slug that I will get mold done for, will be better yet.

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo
outline.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (12/03/09 03:54 PM)


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129845 - 17/03/09 04:01 PM

Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #129888 - 18/03/09 03:53 AM

I'm 'coming' into a Mossy with extra rifled tube.
Do you know if the Lyman slugs shoot from the 35" or 36" twist?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #129927 - 18/03/09 01:30 PM

Fellas say they do ok.Most brag about accuracy.
I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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richla
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Reged: 18/05/07
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Loc: ma
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130079 - 20/03/09 11:30 AM

Yowee, Ed, I think you are my new hero!! This an amazing thread to read.

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 625
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: richla]
      #130093 - 20/03/09 01:58 PM

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 19555
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #130127 - 21/03/09 02:44 AM

Hmmm - reloader #17, eh - probably see that here in a few years. Guess I'm stuck with H4227 and shotgun powders.

What are you guys paying for those M110 Savages? Here, they're listed around $495.00 - bit much for an action - but not much else in a repeater around that will handle those long cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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