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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #118981 - 17/11/08 03:41 AM

Ed - I was sent some 525gr. Lyman's along with some wads and 9.3" bullets for testing, from a friend in Alberta. As yet, I've not tried the Lyman slugs, but have some loaded for testing in 2 3/4" hulls. They are cast of WW metal and weigh 506gr. Av. They do fit perfectly inside a Red WW field wad. From the looks of them, I think I may also have to buy that mould for my own use. They might 'convert' me from round balls for my camp 'bear' gun - might! The round balls in WW metal are almost unstopable and somewhat heaveir than the Lyman slug. Alan M. says the Lyman is very accurate in his side by side 12 as in 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It certainly looks promising and is very easily loaded.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #119164 - 19/11/08 04:05 PM

That's nice thing about them, easy to load and in the cup they
don't lead the barrel. Slug and wad don't look like much
but lot of guys say they are accurate.
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #119213 - 20/11/08 06:52 AM

Ed- can you post a picture of the bolt? Does it have locking lugs on it - 1 or 2?. I'm assuming the bolt cuttout in the action itself is one locking lug. Is it the only lug?

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #119483 - 25/11/08 04:36 PM

The Savage has three front locking lugs and if action was
built thicker you could go BMG pressures.Pics of bolt
are earlier in the thread.
Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (25/11/08 04:39 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #119506 - 26/11/08 05:14 AM

3!!! - wow - some skookum action for a pelter. Cool. guess I'll have to pick one up sometime (Christmas present to myself?) for a dedicated RB or Lyman slug gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #120304 - 04/12/08 02:05 PM

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #120738 - 09/12/08 07:30 PM

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #120816 - 10/12/08 04:57 PM

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121088 - 13/12/08 04:41 PM

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Posts: 623
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121456 - 18/12/08 03:37 PM

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121749 - 21/12/08 03:35 PM

Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC,
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #121986 - 23/12/08 04:55 PM

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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450_366
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122008 - 23/12/08 09:56 PM

I must say that i envy your comittment to the project, there must be some hours behind it.
Ceep it up

Didnt you mention a 8 bore a while ago?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 450_366]
      #122267 - 25/12/08 03:27 PM

Yes we have experimented building a 8 bore on a
bolt action Enfield and now are setting up one on a NEF
heavy barreled 10 ga, by boring it out.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122492 - 28/12/08 02:24 PM

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run one
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #122800 - 01/01/09 07:29 PM

Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously.
I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123065 - 05/01/09 06:22 PM

28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123112 - 06/01/09 05:05 AM

Although I put little if any faith in paper energies, 6,761.77fpe from a Mossy bolt action shotgun! - now that's impressive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #123819 - 12/01/09 01:37 PM

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture
earlier in thread with the porting holes.
Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
You see two in wadcups on the right.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow
base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed
to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel


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Daryl_S
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Posts: 19269
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #123852 - 12/01/09 09:28 PM

Good looking slug, Ed. I wonder how many 5 gallon pails of water it will penetrate. That's pretty light for an 8, isn't it? should be able to get it really trucking. I would think you might want to try WW hardened. 460F or thereabouts for 1 hour then quenched in a bucket of tap water - something soft on the bottom, let sit for 12 hours or more & they should come up to brinel 30 approx. I Suspect you've done this before.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Birdhunter50
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #123868 - 13/01/09 01:21 AM

Daryl,
I have shot the lighter 20 gauge slugs,(350 grains) through three, one gallon water filled milk jugs and into the fourth one, which split and released the slug, which rolled off the table and onto the ground. It had expanded to the diameter of a U.S quarter and is the only one of these slugs I ever managed to retreave intact. Bob H.



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Daryl_S
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #123922 - 13/01/09 10:39 AM

Thanks for chiming in here, Birdhunter - Were they pure lead or cast from WW metal? The expanded bullet pictured looks to be harder than pure, but softer than 12 or 13 brinel, which is what I get with our WW's. At that diameter, I'd expect more cracks - and not as large an expansion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Daryl_S]
      #124869 - 22/01/09 04:51 PM

The slugs I got are 30 to 1 lead/tin mix and seem harder than
WW slugs. As for the 8ga I may make nose little heavier,
but those proportions are like the 12ga one, which most folks
says shoot easy and fast and accurate. So I want same for 8ga,
without going over pressure in the barrel we are redoing.

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" cards and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125173 - 26/01/09 06:58 PM

Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting.
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel


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hubel458
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Posts: 623
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #125531 - 31/01/09 06:13 PM

Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed



PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up there it will help.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

--------------------
Ed Hubel


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