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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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bonanza
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44153 - 17/12/05 12:24 AM

No, that's the Blaser.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44155 - 17/12/05 01:22 AM

400NE,

I am finally glad to hear somebody call a spade a spade.

Searcy may make a useable double. I don't know, as I have never owned or shot one.

One thing I do know is that of all the Searcys I have seen in person and of all the photos I have seen of Searcy DR's, I have never seen one I could take home and hold dear.

Frankly, I can't understand all the fuss and puffing about Searcy DR's. Let's face it, he's not the modern day James Purdey, and he never will be.

Sorry if I stepped on some toes. Maybe too much coffee this morning. Just my opinions, everybody is entitled to his own. That's what keeps this big ball spinning.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44157 - 17/12/05 01:26 AM

"It took 100 years to perfect the Double rifle and now Americans come along and
think they can improve it in 5 more. Next thing will be skip line checkering and
a Monte Carlo Cheekpiece."

And a "short-fat-super mag" chambering, with a huge Sightron scope, synthetic thumb-hole stock, attachment for a Harris bipod... what elese am I missing?

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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bonanza
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
      #44159 - 17/12/05 02:22 AM

It needs to be a Dale Earnhart edition.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
      #44160 - 17/12/05 02:58 AM

Curl:

I agree entirely. However, you know we're making a lot of people mad at us. To be fair though, as I've said here before, Searcy rifles have improved dramatically over the years. Butch himself has stated that his rifles have "evolved" and I'm all for that. I hear he has a new variant coming up, and I look forward to seeing it. It seems that maybe his rifles are still evolving, so there is hope yet.

I have nothing against gunmakers, new or old, trying their hand in the double rifle game and I wish all of them well. What frustrates me is that, every time a new model comes out, it appears that the gunmaker has either never seen a double rifle before, or suffers from the egotistical delusion that they can "improve" perfection. Mick is dead right, the British not only developed them, they polished the ball endlessly and perfected the formula. That achievement is the primary reason for the demand for double rifles today, a fact clearly evident in the changes in the market for pre-war British DRs over the last 15 years. Even among the British, there WERE differences in the proprietary formulae, but they were pretty subtle. There's only so much running room for stylistic interpretation before you wreck the geometry and end up with a boat oar. I'm not singling out Searcy here, I wish the folks at Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Krieghoff, AND Searcy would pick up a good quality British rifle and LOOK AT IT!

(Note to self: That oughtta piss 'em off!)


Chasseur:

You missed one. A beavertail fore-end the size of an Amazon freight canoe - ala the large bore Chapuis.


-----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44163 - 17/12/05 03:14 AM

You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES. Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had. They are simplly TOO HEAVY. Thay are about two pounds heavier than they should be. Theirs cannot shoot monolthic solids. The Brit gunmakers are no longer gunmakers but clothiers. The big names are owned by fashion companies. Their shotguns are very nice but I am personally not interested in a $50,000 shotgun or a $100,000 double rifle than cannot shoot modern bullets and is two pounds heavier than it should be. I'll take a Searcy over anything out there.

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44165 - 17/12/05 03:23 AM

Those miserable little oval Brit cheekpieces are so butt-Ugly, it is unbelieveable. God only knows who came up with that.

Overall, it is only logical that is is America that is improving the double rifle. The Brits are great on double shotguns, but they are simply pathetic on rifles. For a real rifle you need either American or Germanic touch. The Brits never wanted to trust their own people with rifles (other than rook rifles) and do not understand rifles. The pre-WW1 German military 98's were smoother than any of the 98's that the Brits "customized". For real rifles, go American or German.

Now a double rifle with a Ferlack cheekpiece would realy be the final evolution of the double rifle.


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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44168 - 17/12/05 03:33 AM

In reply to:

You missed one. A beavertail fore-end the size of an Amazon freight canoe - ala the large bore Chapuis.





Damn you're right, and the single trigger so it looks just like a Winchester 21

You're right though, thats one of things that really bother me about Chapuis, that damn beavertail... Those little ends also have a tendency to crack.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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clark7781
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
      #44169 - 17/12/05 03:44 AM

Chasseur:

Is it officially Dr. Chasseur now?



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: clark7781]
      #44170 - 17/12/05 04:04 AM

Nahh... I still got to do the defense this spring, but the tenure track job is in the bag! With graduate students to boot!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
      #44171 - 17/12/05 04:14 AM

CptCurl,

For once we diverge in opinion in some ways.

I agree that you can't "take hem home and hold them dear" and that
he's not the Modern James Purdey BUT this is where the problem
lies - Comparing Searcy's and Merkles to English guns.

As you know I have a few English DR's which are dear to me, but I also have
2 Merkels and a Sarqueta. I like them but they are not dear to me.

IMHO, I call them my THRASH guns, the ones I would take into a deep
swamp, not too worried if they get a few knocks and dents.

Merkel, Searcy et al should be looked at as good, solid working guns
and not compared AT ALL to English guns.

I think the reason people rave about Searcy is that he just does a damn
good job of putting together a good, solid, reliable DG DR at a price
that people can afford.

If you look at some of the heavyweight shotguns that have been produced in the past
in the US, Hell, for an American what Searcy makes is not bad !!! (in jest guys)

At least he doesn't want to put a traditional English gun name (Rigby) on a
CNC Machined piece of metal out of Europe and expect us to believe
it's in the same league as before.

However a Searcy does satisfy the "Made in America" syndrome.
(for Peterb's benefit !!!)

500 Nitro



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470NEBD
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Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
      #44173 - 17/12/05 04:18 AM

Thanks! "Bulldog" that is a better pic,the wood is better but it still looks like a brick of wood. If Searcy is going up a Grand, and the wait. I think the merkle is better value I think all the DR's out there are good to an extent, they were designed to stop dangerous animals. As for the engraving I want to shoot the gun not drool over it. As stated before the engraving I have seen has not been very good.

"Another thing", off the the "post" how many rounds do you guys have through you DR. The last Merkle I handled was tight could hardly get the action open, I would imagine it will losen up with rounds through it, but this thin was tight I thought I was not pushing the leaver far enough.

Thank you all, for your imput's


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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
      #44174 - 17/12/05 04:21 AM


470NEBD

The merkel's take a bit of loosening up - I have put over
100 rounds though my 375 and it is still a bit tight but
loosening up

500 Nitro


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clark7781
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44176 - 17/12/05 04:25 AM

In reply to:

I think the reason people rave about Searcy is that he just does a damn good job of putting together a good, solid, reliable DG DR at a price that people can afford.





500Nitro, and I may add that his customer service is hard to beat, something not often found today.

Something breaks on his guns ten years from now, he'll fix it for the cost of shipping.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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mickey
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
      #44178 - 17/12/05 04:51 AM

In reply to:

Poster: Peterb
Subject: Re: Searcy double

You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES. Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had. They are simply TOO HEAVY. They are about two pounds heavier than they should be. Theirs cannot shoot monolithic solids. The Brit gunmakers are no longer gunmakers but clothiers. The big names are owned by fashion companies. Their shotguns are very nice but I am personally not interested in a $50,000 shotgun or a $100,000 double rifle than cannot shoot modern bullets and is two pounds heavier than it should be. I'll take a Searcy over anything out there.






Peter

I need to take exception to some of your points. While Searcy is using better steel than the old Brit rifles the new Brit and Euro rifles all use comparable steel to Searcy.

I find that the Searcy are the heavier rifles in caliber, not the Brit rifles. I think it comes from using the same size action for all calibers instead of the size that best fits. There is also a lot of extra metal on Searcy rifles. Is it because of the reliance on only two locking lugs?

Why would it matter if a rifle can shoot a monolithic solid? What exactly is so great about them? What is wrong with the old tried and true bullets that have been in use for 100 years? Are they not any good?

Until Tyra Banks or Coco Channel start filing barrel flats and timing ejectors who owns the companies is irrelevant. It is the workers who determine the quality. By the way, who is it that owns Winchester/Browning now?

Searcy rifles have come along way since he screwed barrels into Jap Browning actions. They get better feeling and slimmer every time he modifies them. In a few more adaptions he might get to the point where they point and feel like an extension instead of a protuberance.

Of course at that point they will no longer be the entry level tool they are now but be a mid to high priced weapon and people will be touting the next guy to come along and make a cheap and serviceable rifle.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
      #44181 - 17/12/05 05:09 AM

Peter Hiatt:

"You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES."

No, it doesn't, at least not in the way you're thinking. It does only in subtle ways. Rizzini's new take on intercepting sears is outstanding for example. Krieghoff's and Blaser's safey/kickspanner is a serious retrograde movement.

"Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had."

So is everyone else, including the British. This old steel/new steel issue, as it applies to DRs, is a red herring. The materials that the old Brits used was plenty good enough. These guns have stood the test of time. I've seen a great many that were worn out only because the they'd been shot so much that the barrels were shot out, yet they were still in great shape otherwise and still locked up tight as a rat-trap. Given proper maintenance and correct ammo, they're nothing if not durable, and it takes no more abuse to damage a new gun than it does an old one. I recently handled a fairly new Chapuis DR that was off face. Not much use evident, but you could stick a dime between the barrels and the breech face and the barrels were no longer square to the face. I can't remember having seen a pre-war British rifle as fucked up as that one was. The "modern" steel didn't do it a bit of good. The limiting factor of a double gun isn't so much the steel as it is the design and how well the mating surfaces are fit. No drop-down-barrel action will take much pressure or neglect and building it out of the newest vacuum-arc remelting m-effing son-of-a-bitching steel isn't going to change that much.

"They are simply TOO HEAVY. They are about two pounds heavier than they should be."

Some of the British rifles were too heavy, and some were too light. Cabela's has a Jeffery .450/.400 that is 11 pounds 6 ounces (way too heavy) and Champlin's recently had a Holland .577 full Nitro that was only 2 ounces heavier (way too light). Overall, they averaged out just right. Most Brit .470s ran around 10.5 to 11 pounds, so you think a .470 shouldn't weight more than 9 pounds? My .400 weighs 10 pounds, so you think it shouldn't weigh more than 8? Nothing personal, Peter, but that's just nuts.

"Theirs cannot shoot monolithic solids."

Never had any desire to shoot one of those. Woodleigh solids sure seem to work well for everyone I know. Sure, you can run up the wall thickness and get away with it for a while, but bull barrels kill the geometry and you don't have a double rifle anymore - because is doesn't handle like one anymore. Of course, if the "new" steels made so much difference, this wouldn't be necessary. This is precisely my criticism of some of the new doubles, particularly Searcy, Merkel, and Krieghoff.
-----------------------------------------------------------




--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
      #44184 - 17/12/05 05:34 AM

Peter:

Interesting that you seem to take the "American" viewpoint, as we certainly seem to agree about the Winchester 21. I just think that the Searcy is the rifle version.
-----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
      #44189 - 17/12/05 06:20 AM

470NEBD:

Yeah, all of the rifles under discussion are good to an extent and should give good mechanical service. In this price range, I wish they would leave the engraving off and spend the money on better metalwork and fit/finish.

The Merkel is as good as any in its price range. They don't seem to have any accuracy issues. The new guns are reliably extremely stiff. A couple hundred rounds getting used to it should do the trick.

Good quality double rifles will stay on face indefinitely with correct ammo and lubrication. If you horse it, they'll all loosen up quick. I've had well over 1000 rounds through both of mine and both are still dead on face with great bores. Both are pre-war English, the newest was 65 years old when I got it. I have no idea how many rounds they'd had through 'em before they came to me.
-----------------------------------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44190 - 17/12/05 06:25 AM

400NE,

I thoroughly agree with the statement you made just after my last post. The fact is, Searcy has improved his product dramatically over the past 15 to 20 years.

And certainly the world is a better place, and we are all enriched somewhat by his effort. To my knowledge he is the only maker of DR's in the Americas (aside from an occasional special project by Tony Galazan).

The point you made about effort to improve on a design that was perfected by the Brits is a point everyone should read carefully and take to heart. It is just that concept that separates me from my friends who tout Parker, L.C. Smith, Ithica, and Winchester shotguns. My thought in that context is, "At a time when the quintessential design had been placed before the world for all to see, why did those makers take it upon themselves to re-invent the wheel, and do a poor job of it?"

If I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Tony Galazan's just announced "RBL" shotgun will be the first general production A&D shotgun to be produced in the Americas. Bravo! After more than a century America has come to recognise a great design.

As I understand, Searcy employs the A&D design, for which he ought to be commended, but as you say, his lines and style are atrocious. Now granted, he can't afford to have an actioner spend 50 to 100 hours filing the contours of his actions. But the Brits didn't have CNC. On proper machinery he can spit out an action so close to finished that it requires very little handwork. Why doesn't he do it?

Likewise, the stock. The Brits didn't have pantographs, to my knowledge. A computer controlled machine can spit out a stock with proper lines, ready for final fit and finish. So why the funky lines?

I'm not here to piss anybody off, and I generally hold my tongue when the Searcy choir is performing. But there is another side to all the gratuitous accolades.

500Nitro,

You said you thought we had reached a point of disagreement. Not so. I carefully read your post and find nothing in it I would take issue with.

And finally, from inside my glass house let me say that yes, I do have some ugly DR's and I do have some I consider "beaters" or "trash guns." I do hold those to a lower standard than a best Brit rifle, and own them for different reasons and purposes. But at the end of the day, given the choice between a Searcy and a current production Merkel 140-2, I'll take the Merkel. I think it is a better gun, and it is several thousand dollars less, to boot.

Others will differ. I am not trying to impose my thoughts and opinion on anybody. Just stating what's on my mind. We are all blessed to be fascinated by double rifles, no matter who the maker may be.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bulldog563
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
      #44207 - 17/12/05 09:17 AM

I agree with you guys that the brit guns have better fit and finish but after all they should...They cost 4 times as much. The day I can afford a Holland Royal in a decent caliber or a Purdey or Richards I will get one but until then I will have my Searcy. I just think that it is very difficult to compare British DR's to American because they are like apples and oranges. Personally I think Searcy's are great and the reason they get labeled as "clubby" or "a block of wood" etc is because most of the Searcy's people see are examples from early in his career where they haven't eveloved to the point they are now. From what I have seen most of the people who have a newer Searcy don't want to sell it and the people with the older ones want to sell them to buy a new one. Granted I don't have nearly as much experience as most on this forum but I would much rather give my money to someone like Butch who stands behind his work 100%, Works out of my state, Is constantly improving his level of work and models in his line and builds one heck of a DR for the money. If you think they are too heavy or have too much wood there is no doubt that he would try to fix this for your rifle. I just don't see anywhere near his level of commitment in most all of the comparable companies. This is not to say I wouldn't give my money to the Brits but I would just have to give them so much more of it it doensn't make sense to me at the moment. By the way I think this is a great thread.

Edit;
Also don't get me wrong...I love british doubles and hopefully one day I can be fortunate enough to own one. Also I agree with you guys on most points I just think it is hard to compare the two fairly. A Holland is a Holland and a Searcy is a Searcy. Yes they are both doubles but they are completely different.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

Edited by bulldog563 (17/12/05 10:39 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
      #44212 - 17/12/05 09:30 AM

Curl

It's going to be a very interesting dinner in Las Vegas !!!

I'm glad someone else replied to Peterb as I think I might
have started WWIII.

Peterb - don't throw stones in glass houses or someone might
start comparing US Clubs (er sorry, Shotguns) to others and
it wouldn't make US Shotguns smell of roses.

500 Nitro


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44219 - 17/12/05 10:19 AM

500,

Yeah, it's going to be a fine dinner.

A little titter about shape and style means nothing among friends.

Like I said before, We are all blessed to be fascinated by double rifles, no matter who the maker may be.

How can you be angry about somebody who passionately defends a double rifle? Let's bash the fuckers who drag around semi's!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
      #44221 - 17/12/05 10:29 AM

Curl:

"Let's bash the fuckers who drag around semi's."

Nah. Go for the bolt cranker trash.
-----------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44239 - 17/12/05 01:43 PM

The new Purdeys and H&H's I have seen are two pounds heavier than the equal in a Searcy (470). I once had an 8 pound 458 which fit me well and was a pussy to shoot. The 470 is quite equal in energy and I would prefer one of that weight. In the mean time, I'll accept the 9 1/2 pounds I currently have. Anyone who needs a 12 pound 470 or 500 is simply a sissy.

Yes, the Mod 21 is butt-ugly and handles like a sow Superglued to a snow shovel. Of course, it is a copy of a Brit shotgun.

American shotguns were, for the most part, hell bent for stout. That is because it was not the Colt or Winchester which won the West, but the shotgun. They were used for upland game, waterfowl (very few punt guns in the American West), deer with slugs or shot, and Indians and neer do wells. The 10 Ga was usually the gauge of choice. One delicate lil lady home alone found only a door between her and the most famous Californian bandito of the time (some Mexican guy). So she shot both barrels through the door and killed the bad guy AND his horse and was reloading to get the rest of the gang as they hit the leather and got out of there. Colt shotgun if I heard right. Brit authorities would probably arrest her now (if they survived). Later LCS & Fox & Parker, etc came out with game guns like the Brits. The Lefever had a great design with a screw to automatically tighten the action (Brit gunsmith's disliked this as they lost gunsmithing money). The LC had the greatest and simplest design to keep guns from getting loose. Anyone ever seen ANY loose LC?

That petite lil English cheekpiece belongs only on a pimp's gun. It is simply butt-ugly.

As for Butch making the only DR in the US, there is also "Rigby" and the Hoenig TRUE Round Action. I think the Searcy has nice lines and handling. It has the "clam shell" strengthener which allows a lighter gun. The engraving was not to my liking but with a minor upgrade, it is fine.

The Chapuis is French. Let us not try to expect much of it. The French copy no one and no one copies the French.

Purdey uses a Hoenig machine for stocks. When someone wants a hand done job, it is often sent to Trevallion.

I'm no fun at dinners or around the campfire because I am not opinionated enough.

Perhaps someone can explain to me how the Germans can come up the odd and dangerous cocking devices on the Krieghoff and S-2. Did they hire French designers?



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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
      #44243 - 17/12/05 02:01 PM


Peterb

"As for Butch making the only DR in the US, there is also "Rigby" "

Why do you include "Rigby" ? I thought everyone agreed these were
Merkel actions so wouldn't you call them European ?

I think MEXICAN RIGBY is the the name I heard that best suits the
Rigby's sold in the US now.

Just my HO

500 Nitro


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