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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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303
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 136
Loc: west retreat
405 win questions
      #43541 - 09/12/05 04:26 PM

is the 405 win a good caliber for australian buffalo dose it hit hard enough is ammo easy to get in australia how dose it compare to other calibers in the way of power and over all preformance

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43544 - 09/12/05 05:56 PM

303:
The cartridge is at its best on large thin-skinned game. It is a sentimental favourite of many Americans because Roosevelt used it for lion on his African safari, and wrote glowing reports.

It is probably OK on buffalo if a careful shot on an undisturbed animal can be guaranteed, but would be woefully inadequate as a 'stopper' if things didn't go to plan. Boddington brought a Ruger No.1 in that chambering to Australia last year if memory serves, I believe his daughter took a guided buff with it.

Factory-loaded cartridges would be near impossible to get in Australia I suspect, at least within normal price-range. There are many better cartridges for buff, depends on what your intentions are.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 405 win questions [Re: Marrakai]
      #43550 - 09/12/05 10:38 PM

Herron's (Sydney) brings it in and Wesfire (Perth) both on special order

Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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303
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Posts: 136
Loc: west retreat
Re: 405 win questions [Re: RLI]
      #43556 - 10/12/05 12:13 AM

thanks for the info i was just wondering what i was like as a medium to big game caliber

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43569 - 10/12/05 03:51 AM

From a .405 Win. a 300 gr. bullet at approximately 2,200fps to 2,250fps would make a superb round for all North American game to and including the big bears, as a hunting round.
: I would not consider it for dangerous game, but then, have no experience with it on dangerous game. Similar ballistics, with good bullets, have been touted as being good large cat-rounds. I think the line should be drawn there as far as dangerous game is concerned.
: In North America, it would be terrific to about 200 yds. on ungulates and close-in on the big bears.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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zimhunter
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43605 - 10/12/05 09:19 AM

I find it hard to understand the reluctance to use the 405 on dangerous game. In a Ruger No.1 450/400 ballistics can easily be duplicated. Everyone seems to think the 450/400 was /is adequate. You can't duplicate the ballistics in a 95 Win but only because the magazine is too short to hold the 400 gr bullets necessary. I have both a 95 and a No.1 in 405 and would not be reluctant to use either gun on Lion and Buffalo.

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BFaucett
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Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 451
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: zimhunter]
      #43608 - 10/12/05 09:54 AM

Bully For The .405
Roosevelt's "big medicine" enjoys a revival.
By Craig Boddington

My daughter, Brittany, whispered, "Dad, he's getting closer." Her eyes were wide, and all her attention was focused on the buffalo. And he was getting closer. Much closer--About 25 yards out. I was certain he'd seen us, but the breeze was favorable, and the buff's body language suggested curiosity, not aggression. His head was down, covering his chest, and there was no reason to risk a tricky brain shot. At least not yet.

The bull was still coming, one slow step at a time. He was old and huge-bodied, his flat, wide horns swinging slightly. "Dad," came a small, urgent voice, "he's really close." .....

Article is online at:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/bully_041805/



Brittany Boddington shot an exceptional Australian wild boar with her father's .405 Winchester Ruger No. 1. Performance on big hogs was so outstanding, the Boddingtons had no qualms about using the rifle on buffalo.


Brittany Boddington's water buffalo had very good horns and weighed close to 2,500 pounds. A single 300-grain Hornady bullet at very close range did the job nicely, making her professional hunter, Peter Harding, very happy.


Shot with a Ruger No. 1 .405 Winchester, the author's water buffalo was by far the best he's taken after several trips to Australia.


You can argue as to whether the .405 Winchester is truly suitable for game such as buffalo, but there is no question that it's perfect for wild boar and, by extension, black bear and other game normally taken at fairly close range.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: BFaucett]
      #43653 - 10/12/05 06:32 PM

Viva La Brittny!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: 405 win questions [Re: AkMike]
      #43671 - 11/12/05 03:03 AM

Zimhunter:
I have a .405 Ruger No. 1, and would be interested in hearing what bullets and powders you are using to duplicate .450/400 ballistics.

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iwantadouble
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Reged: 06/06/05
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Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: 405 win questions [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #43688 - 11/12/05 07:07 AM

It was my understanding that the .405 Winchester brass was the weak link in making it a viable contender as a .450/.400 clone and would fail at that point.

It seems to be the single most loved or hated round out there. I don't think there is much of a middle ground for it in terms of its appeal. I personally have nothing against it, and think of it as a dandy round with limitations. Those limitations being North American sized and tempered game. Obviously, this limits its thick skinned and dangerous in close stopping potential in my view.

Just because Roosevelt used it with great accolade on big cats does not mean that I personally would follow in that pursuit. I would opt for something with more punch. But that is just my opinion on it. If you like it, and want one, by all means go for it. It will take buffalo as Boddington proved, but pay attention to his remarks on it. In close, with a good shot, the right bullets, and there are better performers out there.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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bobc
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Posts: 31
Re: 405 win questions [Re: iwantadouble]
      #43720 - 11/12/05 01:57 PM

John Barsness wrote an article in the last year or so about the 405 and loading it up easily to 450-400 specs. I think the super strong Ruger #1 action is the key, not the brass. I'd assume new Hornady brass would be fine, and the #1 can handle pressures that the Winchester 95 or a double rifle wouldn't. Barsness loaded 400 gr. bullets as I recall to duplicate the old 450-400 specs. bob

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BFaucett
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Reged: 13/01/04
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #43727 - 11/12/05 03:22 PM

Hodgdon has some loading data using the 400 gr Woodleigh.

See:
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/405win.php

Just going by the Hodgdon data, the ol' .405 won't quite match the 450/400 ballistics but it comes close. Personally I wouldn't pick the .405 Winchester for Buff (either Cape or Water Buff). For African plains game in the bushveld, I think it would probably work fine. (Full disclosure: I've never hunted any type of Buff.)

-Bob F.

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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43738 - 11/12/05 10:57 PM

Yes, you need to order the ammo in and the last two boxes I bought cost me $Aud85 each.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43766 - 12/12/05 07:59 AM

It was a reasonably popular round in India and the Brits made double rifles for it. Should be an interesting choice these days albeit a much less powerful one than what experienced hunters choose. MHO as I have no hunting experience with big bores.

Good luck and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43770 - 12/12/05 09:18 AM

The Hornady soft points are very fragile bullets, at least the 100 or so I have personally shot, so I wouldn't recommend than for anything bigger than a deer, roo in oz. Having said that, if you loaded 400 gr pills to 2050 fps (doable even in the M1895 Winchester) I would question your honesty if you stated it didn't work as well as a 416 Rigby, Remington, etc.

I personally cannot tell the difference in "killing power" between a 300gr Woodleigh at ~ 2450 fps fired from a 405 Win (M1895 Winchester) and a 350 gr Speer or 400 gr Hornady fired at 2750 fps or 2620 fps from the 416 Rigby. All three loads generate practically identical tissue trauma. The Rigby may penetrate a tad farther don't know for sure as all have been pass throughs ie no head on or rear on shots taken. Final note, all the loads I have discussed out-perform the 300gr and 325gr Barnes X bullets fired from the 416 Rigby at the ridiculous muzzle velocities of 2700 fps for either. The Barnes bullets don't do as much damage as a 300 Win mag does, they just pencil through after supposedly shedding their pedals (that last statement assumes that the Barnes expanded in the first place, something we simply do not know).

EDIT

iwantadouble,

The 405 Winchester case is very stout! It would take something like 90,000 psi of chamber pressure to destroy one. It only takes around 75,000 psi of chamber pressure to blow the primer pocket on a mauser case head (308 Win, 30-06, 8mm Mauser, etc).

Scott


Edited by ScottS (12/12/05 09:21 AM)

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Rick_R
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: 303]
      #43777 - 12/12/05 10:37 AM

303,

I only shot the "Poor man's buffalo" with my #1 last year, so I guess I'm poorly equipped to answer . Blue Wildebeest at @ 30 yards. I used a 400gr Woodleigh soft pushed to a bit over 2,000fps by Varget and it punched through the chest and downed the fellow after a brief 20 yard or so run. A white tail deer doe this fall was the second animal I've taken with that load.

FWIW the 450-400 was supposed to launch 400gr bullets at 1,950 from the Tropical load and 2,150 fps for the normal load. You should be able to get the Woodleighs and Varget easier than I can. I've also loaded the 400gr Woodleigh solid to hit the same POI with a grain less powder than the soft load. The Hornady bullets didn't seem to hold up well when I shot them into water or mud, the Woodleigh's did well even after hitting dirt and rock. If the 300gr Woodleigh is a "Weld core" it might do pretty well too.

Personally, I think a .405 double rifle regulated for that load would be a grand hunting tool.

hth

Rick

Edited by Rick_R (12/12/05 10:40 AM)

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 405 win questions [Re: Rick_R]
      #43782 - 12/12/05 12:03 PM

My understanding of the tropical loadings is that they were intended to give full velocity in the heat of Africa, ie 2125fps at say 95*. Cordite was very temperature sensative from what I've read.

On the wound channel from soft bullets, well, thats great for small game. When it comes to bigger stuff its all about penetration, at least in my view. You need the heavy and harder bullets for that. A 400 calibre solid that gets where it needs to go is going to be better than a soft which doesn't. Velocity will get the solid where it needs to go. Weight will get a good soft there too. 400 or 410 grains is the weight that made the 400's reputation. 2125fps is the velocity that did the same. Short on either and you're just experimenting.

JPK

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43786 - 12/12/05 01:06 PM

When I read "tropical ,high temperature,
Africa hot". I just think of Texas.
We don't do any thing special for high
temps here in South Texas and I have
never had a problem. Summer temps are
100 plus on a regular basis. Is the
difference today's powders and primers?
Maybe worthy of a new topic.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: k80]
      #43787 - 12/12/05 01:18 PM

K80,

Yes its todays powders. Cordite was apparently very temperature sensative. Some of todays powders remain so too from what I've read, while some are very temperature insensative.

We get plenty of heat here in Md in the summer with plenty of 90*+ days and a few that go better than 100* too. I have noticed that some loads definitely kick more and are louder too. These are factory loads at that.

JPK

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303
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 136
Loc: west retreat
Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43788 - 12/12/05 01:47 PM

thanks to every one for all the info about the 405 and its preformance this is great stuff the ammo is abit pricey for me i think i will just stick with my 303 for every thing but buff untill i can afford the ammo

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #43853 - 13/12/05 07:56 AM

Scott - and others, I hadn't considered loading the .405 up to the ballistics mentioned, only going on factory 300gr. ammo. I-too felt the factory bullets too soft for buff,(no experience on them) but know for a fact, they work well on N.American big game to and have worked on big bear when necessary.
: A 400gr. at 2,000fps or greater or heavily jacketed 300 at 2,400fps would certainly do the job. The bullet and placement being the main criteria.
: Properly placed, even the 300gr. factory ammo would suffice, if one has the discipline to not shoot until a perfect shot is presented. Just where that would be on a buff, I don't know - but I am sure there are fellows here who are capable.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 405 win questions [Re: DarylS]
      #43860 - 13/12/05 09:47 AM

Daryl,

Those factory Hornady loads scared me! I bought some for initial load work, and they fragmented badly on the "eastern cedar" backstop. Basically this backstop is comprised of a stack of eastern cedar "logs" ranging in diameter from ~ 6" to ~12". The Hornady bullets were exploding after penetrating the smaller logs and did not exit from a larger log.

The Woodleigh 300 gr soft point is a weldcore (bonded) with a heavy jacket of ~ 0.060". They hold up well even when driven at ~ 2500 fps. My rifle likes them running around 2440fps to 2470fps.

Thank you for your comments regarding the performance of the Hornady's on game. They scared me off with their performance on cedar, though.

Scott

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #43883 - 13/12/05 01:34 PM

If you are bound and determined to try to shoot a cape buffalo with a 405, skip the 300grain bullets and go with the 400 grainers both solid and soft. You will need the sectional density. Woodleighs have been good to me.

If you can actually get to 2000fps with a 400 grain bullet and using a temperature insensative powder you are not yet in the ballpark but you are aproaching the gate.

A cape buffalo's rib cage features overlapping, heavy ribs and the heart and lungs are well forward. Stick with the heavy bullets and think about just using the 400 grain solid.

FWIW,

JPK

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
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Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43913 - 13/12/05 06:39 PM

I had just a few 400-grain .412 Barnes solids on hand, and loaded a couple of .405 rounds with 51 grains Varget, as I recall. Gave about 1880 and mild recoil -- much less than a 300 at about 2400. I was surprised. I wonder how easy it is to get to 2000-2050 with a 400 safely in a No. 1.

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43937 - 14/12/05 04:39 AM

JPK,

Relax, I am not going to hunt buffalo with a 405 Win, or any other 40 caliber rifle. I hunt buffalo with a proper stopping rifle, which shoots 570gr or 600gr Woodleigh soft points at 2350+ fps. It has absolutely NO PROBLEM punching very large holes clear through buffalo. Solids SUCK for buffalo, as they do no damage. An animal dies from shock, blood lose, or a combination of the two (excluding CNS hits). Solids do not shock, nor do they do enough tissue trauma to promote a good bleed out. However, if you like them, by all means use them. I shall reserve the solids for their intended purpose, brain shots on ele or any critter with very thick hides (buffalo don't qualify).

That is all I have to say on the subject. So please if nothing else let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

BillinOregon, if you would like some load data I can supply it for the 405 Winnie and 300gr pills as well as 400 gr Woodleighs. I have used Rel7, IMR3031, W748, IMR4895, and maybe one or two others. You can get to 2000+ fps safely with a 400 gr Woodleigh in the M1895 Winchester, but that is about it. I suppose if you really like high pressure loads you can get it to 2100+ fps in a No.1, but like I said they would be high pressure indeed (~ 70 ksi I would think). Send me a PM and I will share what I have in my reloading notes.

Scott

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