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bulldog563
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Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock?
      #42991 - 04/12/05 05:36 PM

If price were no object which would you choose, the Anson & Deeley Boxlock or a Back Action Sidelock and why? What are the pros and cons of both these actions? The rifle will be a 500 NE. Any experiences would be great. I asked the Boxlock vs. Sidelock question earlier and was told that the boxlock was stronger...ie better. Talked to Butch and he said he has never had anyone bring a sidelock back with problems related to strength. In fact his personal rifle is a Sidelock. What do you guys think? I originally was going to go for a boxlock with faux sideplates, when I considered that it was only 2 grand more for the true Sidelock I decided on getting it on Butch's recomendation. Opinions? He hasn't started yet so not too late to change back. Also I think I am going to get his best quality option on the stock work. I wanted to get the whole best quality option but he informed me that it could not be done when I need it so I am going to bring it in at a later date for the best metalwork to be done. Does anyone have a Searcy Sidelock or better yet have both a Searcy Sidelock and a Searcy Boxlock?

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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: bulldog563]
      #43005 - 04/12/05 10:04 PM

Bulldog,

There is a difference between "back action sidelock" and "sidelock". Since Searcy only has sidelock guns on his site I assume that is what you are talking about. The head of the stock on a sidelock gun is going to be weaker than that of a boxlock. For one simple reason they have to remove more wood to inlet the plates, tumblers, sears, etc for the locks. Thus it is deffinately not as strong. However that is a relative term. "not as strong" can still be strong enough.

BB


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43006 - 04/12/05 10:09 PM

I'm pretty sure that Searcy's 500 Sidelock is a back action sidelock. So is a back action sidelock "strong enough"?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43007 - 04/12/05 10:15 PM

bulldog,

I wouldn't worry about it.

Go with what you like in looks, fit, feel and balance.

DR's have been made with Sidelocks for years without
a problem and just on what people say, I very much doubt
that Butch would put something on the market that is not sound.

IMHO, you are more likely to break the stock from falling over
than from the recoil of the gun.

I just re read your original post and if a True Sidelock is only
$2k more, I would buy the Sidelock.

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (04/12/05 10:18 PM)


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43010 - 04/12/05 10:18 PM

Doesn't the fact that companies like Purdey only make a sidelock mean it is plenty strong? Also Butch and many other makers make sidelocks in calibers of 577 and larger...If it is a strong enough design for these big calibers it must be "strong enough" for a 500. Does this logic work? Has anyone heard of a sidelock from a reputable maker have problems related to its strength?

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43011 - 04/12/05 10:20 PM

Whats the difference between a back action sidelock and a Regular sidelock?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43012 - 04/12/05 10:21 PM


Bulldog

Purdey only make Sidelocks as they only make "Best" guns.

Strength is NOT a problem with Sidelocks - it is a non issue
otherwise any problems would have shown up long ago in
Hollands, Purdey's etc who made lots of Sidelocks in big bores.

500 Nitro



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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43013 - 04/12/05 10:23 PM


A back action sidelock has the lock work / spring
on the lockplate to the rear and a bar action sidelock has the
spring along the bar - hence the shape of the Lock going
forward.

Any good book on Shotguns should show you a picture
of the 2.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43014 - 04/12/05 10:24 PM

Is one better then the other?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43015 - 04/12/05 10:26 PM


bulldog,

I'm not technically minded enough to say.

Someone else on the forum will be who I
am sure will answer it.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43016 - 04/12/05 10:30 PM

Cool, thanks for the help.

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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43029 - 05/12/05 01:09 AM

As I said in the earlier post. The term stronger is realative. Yes the boxlock stock head is stronger but the sidelock guns are strong enough. As has been said I'm sure Searcy wouldn't market it if he had problems with them.

The back action sidelocks usually allow the wrist and the entire gun to be thinner and thus usually lighter. No cutouts need to be made into the sides of the receiver so that can be thinner and then that allows the wrist to be thinner, thus reducing some weight.

Back Action Locks

Sidelocks

Now keep in mind these are both hammer guns. It's just the quickest pics I could find.

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new_guy
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: bulldog563]
      #43059 - 05/12/05 03:47 AM

bulldog - I think the definitions and info you are looking for are best summed up here.

http://www.hallowellco.com/boxlock.htm#Sidelock

and here

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

NitroX - this is a pretty good list of terms and definitions, maybe you could make stickly link somewhere as a resource.




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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: new_guy]
      #43071 - 05/12/05 04:59 AM

BullDog,

I believe that the back action sidelock rifle is the epitome of the best double rifle. Every English maker and European maker made their best rifles with this action. To my eye it is the more svelte, sleek and lovely, without close competition (except the very rare round action, ie trigger plate action, Scottish rifles.)

There is no current practical difference between the results you will see with a back action rifle or an A&D rifle.

For a mere $2000 price difference I wouldn't hesitate to choose the back action sidelock rifle.

I am biased, though, my rifle is a back action sidelock.

JPK


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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: JPK]
      #43080 - 05/12/05 08:05 AM

For $18000 why are you still looking at a Searcy? Do you want a 'new'gun? Look at the 500 Hambrusch that 500 grains bought for less than $12000.

A much better value.

Don't get sideplates. Their is something 'fake' about rifles with sideplates. Like Volkswagons with spoilers.

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: mickey]
      #43088 - 05/12/05 10:10 AM

Where can I see some pics of this rifle? I am going to stick with Butch but would be interested in seeing some nice DR's. At this point I would like to get a DR that is new and only mine. In the future I hope to get some vintage Doubles...they sure are nice. Where should I look to see some used DR's?

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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43096 - 05/12/05 10:43 AM

500 grains can post the pictures, it is his now. There are many, many, many dealers in Double rifles on the internet. Most of the big makers have sites. Champlins, Hollowell, Westley Richards etc.

You need to just look. I think most are linked here in the link section at he bottom.

I'm not disparaging Searcy. It is a fine rifle for $10,000. It is just when you go to $20,000 you open up so many more options.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43100 - 05/12/05 10:59 AM

Bulldog:

Regarding your question as to which is better:

There are two types of sidelock, bar-action and back-action. They are so named because the difference between the two is the placement of the mainsprings (which are V-springs). In the bar-action, the mainsprings lie within the action bar, in front of the lockwork. The back-action has the springs pinned to the lockplate itself, behind the lockwork. Since the action bar of the bar-action must be inletted to house the mainsprings, the action bar is thus weakened at the break-off - the weakest point of any drop-down barrel action. Since the mainsprings of the back-lock don't lie within the action bar at all, more steel is left in the bar, making it, theoretically, the stronger of the two. This is why the back-action is sometimes preferred for double rifles. Virtually all of the lockwork of a boxlock is housed within the action body (the box) which means that it is, theoretically, weaker than either sidelock.

That's the theory. In the real world, with regard to the relative strengths of the actions themselves, it's all rat lotion. All three have been field tested for over a century and have been proven to be more than strong enough. Far more nitro boxlock DRs have been built than sidelocks and they're just as reliable, if not more so. As for the Nitro hammerless sidelocks from the best makers, Holland "Royal" double rifles have always been back-locks, but Purdey's and Rigby's (London) were usually bar-locks and they worked fine.

The weakness of the sidelock DR is in the stock-head, due to the inletting of the locks. This shouldn't be an issue when the rifle is new, assuming it is of good quality (no comment), but becomes one as they age. The battering from recoil, softening from oil soaking, etc., can lead to problems. In my observation, far more sidelocks suffer from these problems than boxlocks. The Baker extended top tang (the top tang of the action extends through the wrist and up over the top of the comb), as found on Holland DRs, can't prevent this entirely, but it sure helps to spread out the load. I wouldn't have a large-bore sidelock DR without it.

For a hard service, heavy caliber DR, I'd get a boxlock.

Banzaibird:

The sidelock on Searcy's web site is a back-action sidelock. Yes, the shape of the lock-plates is of that usually associated with bar-actions, but that has nothing to do with it. The lockplates of Holland "Royal" and Marcel Thys DRs are of the same shape and those are both back-locks. Both look very similar to the Purdey, which is a bar-lock. Simple matter to pin back-action locks to a bar-action lockplate, which is exactly what they're doing. The only reliable way to tell the difference is the placement of the pins. Compare the lockplates of a Holland "Royal" shotty with those of a Holland "Royal" DR. The pin placement is completely different because the locks pinned to them are different. Take a look at the top photo link in new_guy's post. This is what the lock of the Holland DR looks like on the back side.

The preference for the back-action for double rifle use has nothing to do with weight saving or profile.

JPK:

"Every English maker and European maker made their best rifles with this action."

This has never been true. "Best" back-action DRs are perhaps the most common, but not by a wide margin. There are a lot of "best" bar-action DRs out there.
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kino
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43102 - 05/12/05 11:01 AM

500 Grains post a link to his Hambrush a couple weeks ago. It's titled "My Ham" Hope this works http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=doubles&Number=40878&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43110 - 05/12/05 11:30 AM

400Nitro,

When you say "The Baker extended top tang (the top tang of the action extends through the wrist and up over the top of the comb), as found on Holland DRs, can't prevent this entirely, but it sure helps to spread out the load. I wouldn't have a large-bore sidelock DR without it."

Does this really make a difference? If so would the long trigger guard also make it stronger? Is the increase in strength really enough to make a difference?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43119 - 05/12/05 11:59 AM

Bulldog:

IMHO, yes to both, and yes, I believe that it can make a difference in the long term. The guard tang should blind into the pistol-grip cap on a double rifle.
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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43147 - 05/12/05 04:04 PM

400NitroExpress,

Yes, not all best rifles are back actions; my comment was, of course, an oversimplification. Seems that the vast number of best heavy nitro rifles are, whether English or European. Am I mistaken here?

So far as sleek, svelte, lovely, I refer to the aesthetically pleasing lines of sidelocks in general as opposed to boxlocks.

I don't think there exist any hard service for a double rifle anymore, PH rifles perhaps, but unlikely, excepted. No one spends enough time in the bush or shoots enough, especially under tough conditions to even come close to what might be considered hard service, at least from the historical perspective.

JPK


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43150 - 05/12/05 04:31 PM

JPK:

Yes, an oversimplification. Yeah, I think most are back-locks, but not overwhelmingly so. Especially in England, there was just too much "snob" resistance to the back-action, which was too strongly associated with Birmingham. This is also most likely why some "best" gun makers like Holland disguised their "best" back-action rifles by using bar-action lockplates with back-action lockwork - and the "bar-form back-action" sidelock was born.
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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43156 - 05/12/05 06:35 PM

400NitroExpress,

I will have to keep my eyes open and try to get a ratio, just for kicks. I'll group them in over 375 H&H or Flanged Magnum and an under catagory.

Interestingly, from what I've read, I found no hint of any snob resisance to a back action rifle.

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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43197 - 06/12/05 08:38 AM

That's why I like this forum. I never realized that makers built back action loacks on bar action side plates.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43208 - 06/12/05 10:26 AM

banzaibird,

You bet! Here's a photo of just what you are wanting to see. This is a back action sidelock dressed up as a bar action. Notice the mainspring to the rear of the tumbler. Also notice the plate extending over the bar, but with no spring. This is a DR lock.




Here's the very same lock from the outside. A good eye will spot this as a rifle (with back action locks) because there is no pin on the sideplate near the front of the bar.




On the other hand, the next photo is a bar action sidelock off a shotty. Notice the mainspring out in front of the tumbler, mounted along the part of the sideplate that extends along the bar.




Here is a photo of the same shotty from the outside. Notice the pin toward the front of the bar. This anchors the mainspring at the apex of its fold. The existence of this pin is a dead give-away that it's a bar action.




Finally, here is a back action sidelock that is not dressed up like a bar action. It's an H&H .577 Nitro, and I got the photo from Lewis Drake's website. You can see that the sideplate is truncated and does not extend along the side of the bar.





I hope this adds something to the discussion.

Curl




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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43215 - 06/12/05 12:06 PM

CptCurl,

I certainly think it adds alot. That leads me to another question. Anyone have pics of a blitz action, and it workings?

BB


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43216 - 06/12/05 12:09 PM

Great photos Curl, and perfectly done.

There is another fairly reliable way to tell - the four pins that make a straight line behind the cocking indicator on the back-locks.

Did you notice that the .577 is a "flat back" (not stocked to the fences) with a through lump? Both are features that "best" guns aren't supposed to have, but it says "Royal" on it anyway! I handled it in April at the NRA show. Nice rifle but the Cordite burn is significant.
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43221 - 06/12/05 01:21 PM

Yeah, I handled that .577NE at the Vintagers in Sept 04. As you say, a lot of burn. Don't you wonder who shot that rifle enough to blacken the insides of the barrels?

The features of that rifle do make one wonder about the "myths" of what constitutes a "best quality" double.

I notice the price is now "down" to $95k! Sure would be great for popping chipmunks on a Saturday afternoon.

Curl

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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43240 - 06/12/05 06:54 PM

Well, I spent a pleasent evening looking at some nice double rifles on various dealers' sites and have come up with some numbers regarding the ratio of back action sidelocks vs bar action sidelocks.

Here's how it breaks down so far:

Nitro sidelock double rifles in 375 or better.

Back Action: 19
Bar action: 3

Under 375:

Back Action: 3
Bar Action: 3

There are nine makers using the back action in the bigger bores that I looked at. There were three makers in the bar action big bores.

For the smaller bores there were three back action makers, two of which showed in the back action big bores. For the small bore bar action there were three makers, one of which also made one of the big bore bar actions.

No maker made both a back action and a bar action rifle.

Back action makers were:

Holland & Holland
Rigby
Jefferey
Watson
Westely Richards
Dumoulin
Francotte
Thys
Perugini & Visini
Genossenschaft (sp?)
Bury


Bar action makers were:

Purdey
Daniel Fraser
Lebeau Corrally
Arrietta
Saresquetta

So far 86.4% of the big bores have been made with the back action while 13.6% have been made on the back action. And its 50/50 for the small bores. Seems so far that the preponderance of big bore sidelock rifles were made on the back action, but the sample is small and there are other makers out there.

I'll try to look at some more sites tommorow. It not a bad way to spend an evening.

JPK


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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43241 - 06/12/05 07:00 PM

Banzaibird,

I'd bet you can find a picture of a round action, ie, trigger plate action, ie, blitz action on www.mckaybrown.com

Davis Mckay Brown is a current Scottish maker making both shotguns and rifles using the round action. There was a thread here a couple of months ago titled something like "Which Would You Prefer" that paired a Mckay Brown 470 and, I believe, a Westley Richards droplock.

JPK


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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43248 - 06/12/05 08:31 PM

You can add B. Searcy to the list of back actions. CptCurl, thanks for posting the pics, they were very helpful.

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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43252 - 06/12/05 09:03 PM

JPK:

What Rigby are you looking at? The pre-war hammerless Rigby's were almost entirely bar-actions. The several that I found quickly on the web are all bar-actions.
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43260 - 06/12/05 11:57 PM

JPK,

McKay Brown is the maker of the DR of my dreams. Unfortuantely unless I rob banks or something the prices are out of my league.

BB


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43271 - 07/12/05 01:36 AM

Banzaibird,

You're not the only one with those dreams. Like a Marilyn Monroe, a MacKay Brown rifle has many admirers thinking about her all the time.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5269
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #43281 - 07/12/05 02:57 AM

Let me throw in my two cents worth.

There is a big difference between a German gun with the Blitz system and a Scottish round action. They are both trigger plate actions, but they are not the same design.

Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient knowledge of the two designs to expound on the differences. Maybe somebody else can.

Regards,
Curl

P.S.

The earlier thread making a comparison between the David McKay Brown and a Westley Richards is here:

Two Fine Doubles - Sound Off With Your Opinion.

Unfortunately, it appears we have lost the picture links to the David McKay Brown in that thread. Being something of a gun "picture collector" I downloaded those pics when they were available. I'll post them this evening. Better yet, NitroX, if you are reading, I can coordinate with you to get you the pics on your server, then you can repair your links in your posts. Let me know.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43287 - 07/12/05 04:43 AM

400NitroExpress,

The Rigby is a rising bite and a bar action. Its the one listed as sold at Roosevelt and Drake. I went back through mt list and didn't find any other errors.

Corrected numbers:

Big bores:

Back action: 18
Bar action: 4

Corrected ratio: 81.8% back action and 18.2% bar action for the big bores.

Throwing in the two rifles CaptCurl posted photos of and the numbers come up:

Back action: 19
Bar action: 5

Ratios: 79% back action and 21% bar action.

I can't make out who made either rifle.

I've looked at Galazan's, Fine Firearms, in my gun room, Champlin's, WR's, Bass Pro Shops, GA, Roosevelt and Drake, Gun Vault, Steve Barnett. One thing is clear and that is that I need to reorganize and shorten my favorites list, can't seem to find some of the dealers I've looked at in the past. This computer is about nine months old and I may not have transferred all of them.

Got any more places to look at sidelock rifles?

JPK

I won't add a Searcy or xxxx maker to the list even if they only make one or another type of action, only the rifles I can find, since really this list is a count of rifles and not makers.

Edited by JPK (07/12/05 04:50 AM)


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43337 - 07/12/05 12:18 PM

How much would a new McKay Brown Round Action DR cost?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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new_guy
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43356 - 07/12/05 01:25 PM

I'm guessing they start around 35-40K Pounds - probably in line with a new WR drop-lock.

PS - that probably only includes minimal engraving...

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

Edited by new_guy (07/12/05 02:14 PM)


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: new_guy]
      #43367 - 07/12/05 04:42 PM

New numbers:

Big bores:

Back action: 22
Bar action: 6

Ratio: 79% back action; 21% bar action.

Small bores:

Back action: 3
Bar action: 4

Ratio: 43% back action; 57% bar action.

When I get too bored for this I'll post a table with makers in a new thread. One noteworthy observation is that I've yet to come across any maker with rifles both bar action and back action.

JPK


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NitroXAdministrator
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Posts: 39203
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #68132 - 27/12/06 11:49 PM

BTTT. Christmas thread "spinner".

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