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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43208 - 06/12/05 10:26 AM

banzaibird,

You bet! Here's a photo of just what you are wanting to see. This is a back action sidelock dressed up as a bar action. Notice the mainspring to the rear of the tumbler. Also notice the plate extending over the bar, but with no spring. This is a DR lock.




Here's the very same lock from the outside. A good eye will spot this as a rifle (with back action locks) because there is no pin on the sideplate near the front of the bar.




On the other hand, the next photo is a bar action sidelock off a shotty. Notice the mainspring out in front of the tumbler, mounted along the part of the sideplate that extends along the bar.




Here is a photo of the same shotty from the outside. Notice the pin toward the front of the bar. This anchors the mainspring at the apex of its fold. The existence of this pin is a dead give-away that it's a bar action.




Finally, here is a back action sidelock that is not dressed up like a bar action. It's an H&H .577 Nitro, and I got the photo from Lewis Drake's website. You can see that the sideplate is truncated and does not extend along the side of the bar.





I hope this adds something to the discussion.

Curl




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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43215 - 06/12/05 12:06 PM

CptCurl,

I certainly think it adds alot. That leads me to another question. Anyone have pics of a blitz action, and it workings?

BB

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43216 - 06/12/05 12:09 PM

Great photos Curl, and perfectly done.

There is another fairly reliable way to tell - the four pins that make a straight line behind the cocking indicator on the back-locks.

Did you notice that the .577 is a "flat back" (not stocked to the fences) with a through lump? Both are features that "best" guns aren't supposed to have, but it says "Royal" on it anyway! I handled it in April at the NRA show. Nice rifle but the Cordite burn is significant.
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43221 - 06/12/05 01:21 PM

Yeah, I handled that .577NE at the Vintagers in Sept 04. As you say, a lot of burn. Don't you wonder who shot that rifle enough to blacken the insides of the barrels?

The features of that rifle do make one wonder about the "myths" of what constitutes a "best quality" double.

I notice the price is now "down" to $95k! Sure would be great for popping chipmunks on a Saturday afternoon.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43240 - 06/12/05 06:54 PM

Well, I spent a pleasent evening looking at some nice double rifles on various dealers' sites and have come up with some numbers regarding the ratio of back action sidelocks vs bar action sidelocks.

Here's how it breaks down so far:

Nitro sidelock double rifles in 375 or better.

Back Action: 19
Bar action: 3

Under 375:

Back Action: 3
Bar Action: 3

There are nine makers using the back action in the bigger bores that I looked at. There were three makers in the bar action big bores.

For the smaller bores there were three back action makers, two of which showed in the back action big bores. For the small bore bar action there were three makers, one of which also made one of the big bore bar actions.

No maker made both a back action and a bar action rifle.

Back action makers were:

Holland & Holland
Rigby
Jefferey
Watson
Westely Richards
Dumoulin
Francotte
Thys
Perugini & Visini
Genossenschaft (sp?)
Bury


Bar action makers were:

Purdey
Daniel Fraser
Lebeau Corrally
Arrietta
Saresquetta

So far 86.4% of the big bores have been made with the back action while 13.6% have been made on the back action. And its 50/50 for the small bores. Seems so far that the preponderance of big bore sidelock rifles were made on the back action, but the sample is small and there are other makers out there.

I'll try to look at some more sites tommorow. It not a bad way to spend an evening.

JPK

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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43241 - 06/12/05 07:00 PM

Banzaibird,

I'd bet you can find a picture of a round action, ie, trigger plate action, ie, blitz action on www.mckaybrown.com

Davis Mckay Brown is a current Scottish maker making both shotguns and rifles using the round action. There was a thread here a couple of months ago titled something like "Which Would You Prefer" that paired a Mckay Brown 470 and, I believe, a Westley Richards droplock.

JPK

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43248 - 06/12/05 08:31 PM

You can add B. Searcy to the list of back actions. CptCurl, thanks for posting the pics, they were very helpful.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43252 - 06/12/05 09:03 PM

JPK:

What Rigby are you looking at? The pre-war hammerless Rigby's were almost entirely bar-actions. The several that I found quickly on the web are all bar-actions.
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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43260 - 06/12/05 11:57 PM

JPK,

McKay Brown is the maker of the DR of my dreams. Unfortuantely unless I rob banks or something the prices are out of my league.

BB

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43271 - 07/12/05 01:36 AM

Banzaibird,

You're not the only one with those dreams. Like a Marilyn Monroe, a MacKay Brown rifle has many admirers thinking about her all the time.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #43281 - 07/12/05 02:57 AM

Let me throw in my two cents worth.

There is a big difference between a German gun with the Blitz system and a Scottish round action. They are both trigger plate actions, but they are not the same design.

Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient knowledge of the two designs to expound on the differences. Maybe somebody else can.

Regards,
Curl

P.S.

The earlier thread making a comparison between the David McKay Brown and a Westley Richards is here:

Two Fine Doubles - Sound Off With Your Opinion.

Unfortunately, it appears we have lost the picture links to the David McKay Brown in that thread. Being something of a gun "picture collector" I downloaded those pics when they were available. I'll post them this evening. Better yet, NitroX, if you are reading, I can coordinate with you to get you the pics on your server, then you can repair your links in your posts. Let me know.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: CptCurl]
      #43287 - 07/12/05 04:43 AM

400NitroExpress,

The Rigby is a rising bite and a bar action. Its the one listed as sold at Roosevelt and Drake. I went back through mt list and didn't find any other errors.

Corrected numbers:

Big bores:

Back action: 18
Bar action: 4

Corrected ratio: 81.8% back action and 18.2% bar action for the big bores.

Throwing in the two rifles CaptCurl posted photos of and the numbers come up:

Back action: 19
Bar action: 5

Ratios: 79% back action and 21% bar action.

I can't make out who made either rifle.

I've looked at Galazan's, Fine Firearms, in my gun room, Champlin's, WR's, Bass Pro Shops, GA, Roosevelt and Drake, Gun Vault, Steve Barnett. One thing is clear and that is that I need to reorganize and shorten my favorites list, can't seem to find some of the dealers I've looked at in the past. This computer is about nine months old and I may not have transferred all of them.

Got any more places to look at sidelock rifles?

JPK

I won't add a Searcy or xxxx maker to the list even if they only make one or another type of action, only the rifles I can find, since really this list is a count of rifles and not makers.

Edited by JPK (07/12/05 04:50 AM)

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43337 - 07/12/05 12:18 PM

How much would a new McKay Brown Round Action DR cost?

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new_guy
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43356 - 07/12/05 01:25 PM

I'm guessing they start around 35-40K Pounds - probably in line with a new WR drop-lock.

PS - that probably only includes minimal engraving...

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Edited by new_guy (07/12/05 02:14 PM)

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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: new_guy]
      #43367 - 07/12/05 04:42 PM

New numbers:

Big bores:

Back action: 22
Bar action: 6

Ratio: 79% back action; 21% bar action.

Small bores:

Back action: 3
Bar action: 4

Ratio: 43% back action; 57% bar action.

When I get too bored for this I'll post a table with makers in a new thread. One noteworthy observation is that I've yet to come across any maker with rifles both bar action and back action.

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #68132 - 27/12/06 11:49 PM

BTTT. Christmas thread "spinner".

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