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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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agent00
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what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge?
      #42938 - 04/12/05 04:29 AM

Hi, its me again ,this time with a historical question: what was the most powefull black powder big game catridge?

I would be pleased hearing a few answers.thanks.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: agent00]
      #42947 - 04/12/05 08:14 AM

That would have to be S.Bakers 2 bore.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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agent00
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: DarylS]
      #42948 - 04/12/05 08:22 AM

ok thx for your answer, can you tell me a bit more about the 2 bore rifle?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: agent00]
      #42950 - 04/12/05 10:16 AM

All I know about it, is that it was his "Devil Stopper" and never failed to floor a charging elephant. I seem to recall that the 2 bore bore size was around 1 1/2" & that the gun weighed some 25 or 30 lbs. At that, they'd line up 20 'kaffers'(their name for their packers) each one holding the one in front and the lead one would hold the gun to fire it. This was so it's barrels could be cleaned & loaded fresh. They did this once a week. On each shot, there'd be all 20 of them spread around on the ground. Seems to me, they were using small bodied bushmen for packers at that time. HE wrote he fired this gun some 20 times himself, and that it produced in him an awful flinch he could never get rid of and lamented every having it made up. Most of us today, wouldn't fire an 8 bore with the loads they used on Elephant, more than once.
: He had a slug mould made for his other stopper, a 4 bore double, which ruined it's killing powder. Obviously, a 1/4 pound ball, just over 1" in diameter, is all that's really needed in the sorst situation. The 4-bore slug, however wouldn't kill worth a damn.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: DarylS]
      #42967 - 04/12/05 01:09 PM

Daryl_S:
You will find that Baker's 'Baby' was in fact closer to a four-bore. It fired a half-pound long conical 'shell', which has led to the popular misconception that it was a two-bore. The gun still exists.



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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BillfromOregon
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: Marrakai]
      #42968 - 04/12/05 01:13 PM

Actually, I believe Baby was a muzzleloader. Among the BP cartridges, the .577 BP Express, 3 1/4-inch was one of the biggest rifle cartridges, and they you go to the "Gauge rifles" of 4- 8- 10- and 12-bore. I have never seen case specifications or factory load data for any of these, and would be curious to know the details, although in their heyday, the chaps who could afford them could probably afford the virtually hand-made ammo that went with a particular gun.

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agent00
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #43000 - 04/12/05 08:06 PM

ok thx for the informativ answers.



ps: Can somebody tell me the ballistic data of the 577 Black Powder Express?

Edited by agent00 (04/12/05 11:59 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: Marrakai]
      #43068 - 05/12/05 04:46 AM

Really- well there you go! Can't trust everything you read.
: I do have a quote from him about a 4 bore round ball double he had that he had a conical mould made for, which destroyed it's efficiency at killing game. He wrote that it "led me into such scrapes that I eventually gave up the conical as useless".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #43069 - 05/12/05 04:50 AM

I have a friend who collected double rifles years ago, who still owns and shoots 12, 10 and 8 bore, ctg. double rifles.
: Specifics on these and the smaller rifle can be found in Barnes "Ctgs. of the World".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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agent00
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: DarylS]
      #43074 - 05/12/05 05:15 AM

ok, thx for your tipp, I will buy a copy of catridges of the world

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BillfromOregon
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: agent00]
      #43078 - 05/12/05 07:21 AM

Baker quotes these data on the .577 Express: 6 drams powder (about 160 grain) and 648-grain solid bullet at 1650 fps, giving just under 4,000 fpe.

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gatsby
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: agent00]
      #43079 - 05/12/05 08:00 AM

agent00
If you have the Double Gun Journal Volume 13 issue 8, Frank Findlow's article on 12 bore rifles page 158 has some excellent tables comparing modern cartridges to various bore guns. My Holland 577 is regulated for a 650gr. bullet at about 1800fps. The 4, 8 and heavy 12 bore bore rifles delivered more energy hands down than any other bp cartridge

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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agent00
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catridge? [Re: gatsby]
      #43162 - 05/12/05 09:13 PM

ok thx for your tipps. I haven't got the Double Gun Journal Volume 13 but I will try to purchase it.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #44632 - 22/12/05 01:39 PM

BFO,

The figures don't add up with the .577. With 160 grains and a 645 grain bullet at 1650 FPS, and 4000FPE. I just don't think 160 grains is enough go powder. At 130 grains ffg the 12 bore is barely making 1250 fps with a lighter bullet. I'm not sure 160 will take it to over 1600FPS, it might seems every 10 grs gets another 100fps ROUGHLY.

Any body have a .577 Express in BP that can confirm?

Colorado

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You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Marrakai
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44636 - 22/12/05 02:01 PM

There are many published BP loads in catalogues, cartridge lists, and ballistic tables of the day. The standard .577 BP load was a 530 or 540 gr paper-patched lead bullet over 165gr BP. The widely-published velocity for that load was 1650 fps. Replacing the bullet with a 650-grainer might be expected to require more powder to reach the same velocity, but maybe not. It would certainly increase pressure a bit.

I load 'nitro-for-black' to 1650 fps with a 650gr jacketed bullet, in a Greener double so-chambered, but have no experience with black powder in that cartridge.

Six drams is closer to 165 than 160 gr, BTW.

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Marrakai
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--------------------------------
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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: Marrakai]
      #44644 - 22/12/05 03:34 PM

Excuse my stupidity here, but what is nitro-for-bp? Is it nitro powder that can replace BP?

Thanks,
Colorado

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Marrakai
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44657 - 22/12/05 05:58 PM

"Nitro-for-black" loads are those which use a nitro powder to give the same ballistics as the original black powder 'factory load', at the same or less pressure.

For example: in the .577 x 3-inch cartridge, the original BP load consists of a 540gr bullet over 165gr black powder, for 1650 fps at 10 tons pressure. The "nitro-for-black" load usually had a 650gr bullet loaded over 65gr cordite for the same 1650fps, at 9 or 10 tons pressure, and could be safely substituted in any BP-proved rifle.

The full nitro-express load, on the other hand, sent off a 750gr bullet just over 2000 fps at perhaps 14 tons, and could not be safely discharged in a BP-proved firearm.




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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: Marrakai]
      #44658 - 22/12/05 06:06 PM

Got it, thanks for the info. BTW I've figured out how to post photos, and will have more interesting ones of the Kodiak tomorrow. Maybe some of me squeezing some off.

Colorado

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44729 - 23/12/05 04:08 PM

Unfortunately, our GOEX black powder doesn't duplicate the ballistics of English ctg. rifle loads. I seems to be almost 20% weaker, and of course is much dirtier and dryer burning. While I've never used good English powder, I have used 3 oounds of American Deadshot 2F that was wonderfully moist burning and clean shooting. It had NO dust in it, hard polished angular hard grains of powder and developed really high velocities per charge.
: It has been stated, that Swiss powder duplicates the old powders best, but is not as moist burning as they were. All this means is it requires a better or more quantity of a good BP lubricant to be clean shooting. We found this in the 3-1/4" Sharps .45's and .50's and got them shooting very cleanly. The same pertains to all BP ctgs. If the fouling of 5 shtos cannot be wiped form the bore with a single cloth cleaning patch through the bore, the lube needs to be changed or quanitiy increased.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: DarylS]
      #50090 - 16/02/06 10:50 AM

Good idea.

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JohnTheGreek
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50120 - 16/02/06 07:25 PM

Marrakai is right of course that "Baby" was a four bore shooting those 1/2 pound exploding conicals of Baker's own design and I think Reilly manufacture. As for recoil, I have no doubt it was nasty considering the AMAZING powder charges that Baker used to advocate! While he notes in one area that firing with "only" 10 drams (273 grains) spins him "round like a top", he also talks about firing a 22 pound rifle (presumably "Baby") in "Wild Beasts and Their Ways" with conical bullets pushed by 16 DRAMS of powder. OUCH! In another portion of Bakers writing he describes the four and eight bore rifles as being used with 14 drams of powder. Again, OUCH! Consistency ,apparently, wasn't Baker's strong suit when it came to powder charges. Now according to the ballistic information published by Holland and Holland in the 1800's regarding the 8 bore in particular, they used a 26" barrel and regulated them for 10 drams. At the muzzle and with a conical, velocity was 1500 f/s yielding 6273 f/# from a 1257 grain slug. Using a round ball, the same 10 dram charge brought 1654 f/s and 5232 f/# from an 892 grain projectile. The above October Country data is dubious at best unless they happen to be reaching those levels with "non traditional" powder charges. My own new manufacture eight bore front stuffer uses an .820 diameter 830 grain (wheel weight) round ball (itself, a bit non-traditional). According to the gunsmith who kindly provided me the new rifle as well as the above data, muzzleloader figures, as mentioned above, are going to drop a bit below those of cartridge rifle statistics.

Having fired this 16 pound weapon repeatedly with the standard 10 dram charge under round ball, I can say that (while it is an experience) it isn't too bad. It surely doesn't kick THAT much more than my .416 and I'm not sure recoil is distinguishable from the likes of .470s I have fired. Now, up that to 14-16 drams and I would probably be spinning like a top. As an aside, relating to the .577 discussion, it is important to remember that Baker considered the .577 BPE to be a "medium" bore AT BEST and suitable for buffalo only "in a pinch".



Best,

John

Edited by JohnTheGreek (16/02/06 07:33 PM)

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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #50144 - 17/02/06 01:46 AM

Yup

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DarylSModerator
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50152 - 17/02/06 03:31 AM

Colorado, check out http://www.americanlongrifles.com/forum/default.asp?CAT_ID=2
: That forum has many of the very best ML custom makers on the North American continent.
: While mostly concerned with flinters of the American heritage era, many shoot caplocks, chunk-guns and now the rage is large bores with several .73's, 8's and 4 bores being made now by some of the members.
: The forum members have a wealth of information, from the technical stuff to plain building and load developement.
; Although for a given charge, the ctg. gun, with it's closed system will give hgiher bllistics than a ML rifle or smoothbore. There the similarity stops. A muzzlelaoder doesn't have a case constricting how much powder can be applied. In large bores, the pain will stop you before you use enough powder to get up to even 12,000CUP pressure, much below what a smaller .45 to .54 cal runs as normal.
; Even a smallish .69 with a 5dram charge will exit from the Indian Elephant's head on a bain shot, so says Samual Baker. The 'Bore" rifles had enormous power and recoil too. A ctg. 4 bore, restricted in it's powder charge by it's case capacity, broke WW Greener's recoil machine as it only registered up to 200 pounds. The .460 Weatherby, recoils with about 85lbs. Actually, equal recoil usually means equal power. The big Weatherby, with it's 7,000fpe or whatever, has less actual effect on a buffalo than does a .500 Nitro, with it's 5,000fpe - go figure. According to those who've used these a LOT on African game, each step up in calibre, created MORE effect on the animal, having more smashing power than the smaller bullet, even though the FPE didn't reflect that visual effect. Just another expample of fpe and it's lies.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JohnTheGreek
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50162 - 17/02/06 08:13 AM

Colorado,

I don't think they're lying turds....just that maybe they are using longer bbls or heavier powder charges. Their data is possible I suppose...just not pleasant or necessary really.

Haven't Chrono'd the 8-bore yet...nor do I really plan to I guess. It shoots as it should and I am pretty confident that an 8-bore ball pushed by 273 grains of Swiss will kill anything on the planet if I do my part. The sh!t of it is that I live abroad and the rifle is in North America. I get to visit it three or four months out of the year.

Best,

John

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BlainSmipy
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Re: what was the most powerfull bp big game catrid [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #50166 - 17/02/06 10:31 AM

Is it a single or double 8 bore?


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