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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
elephant hunting with the .375hh
      #4272 - 27/09/03 04:45 PM

http://www.african-hunter.com/375_on_elephant.htm

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: gryphon]
      #4279 - 30/09/03 01:54 AM


In reply to:

No safari client of mine ever lost an elephant wounded. I lost a couple when cropping elephant in my tyro days which led me to embrace the infallible when I entered the safari field. As we all know, the brain-shot is considered to be the classical shot on elephant and I would tell my clients that they must go for this shot and explain how to do it. But then I would also explain that a brain-shot elephant collapses instantly, and if it was still on its feet the instant after he had fired, that he had missed the brain and it was wounded, then it became my duty to put in an immediate following shot to stop it from escaping. When the client came into the aim for the brain, I came into aim for the shoulder, and if the elephant’s shoulder was still in my sights immediately after the client fired, I would pull the trigger. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that it’s the client’s animal, he has paid for it, and he has the right to demand that his PH does not shoot it. The prime hunting ethic is that a hunter makes a quick, clean kill and ensures that there is minimal suffering, and this ethic must supersede any demand that a client may make.



I do not care how "famous" the PH is, if they want to shoot it for you, they may as well pay for it as well.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: NitroX]
      #4282 - 30/09/03 04:56 AM

hey i agree mate...........unless the bull is flogging you against a tree hahaaa

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
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Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: gryphon]
      #4289 - 01/10/03 03:41 AM

Sounds like he just doesn't like the idea of tracking!

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~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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mikeh416Rigby
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Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: gryphon]
      #4332 - 07/10/03 08:28 AM

I recall watching one of Mark Sullivan's videos where the client clearly missed a shot at a Cape Buffalo, and Mr. Sullivan immediately touched off his double rifle, dropping Mbogo in its tracks. He then extended his hand to congratulate the client on his "fine buffalo". I'd have been totally ticked off, as the buff was at least 75 yards away, and not charging. As far as I'm concerned, this was inexcusable, and I wouldn't have accepted it as mine.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: NitroX]
      #4571 - 25/10/03 02:15 PM

I gave a rather long explanation of current elephant hunting practices under the post title of "Elephant Hunting" (?) a couple months ago on AR.

Brian Marsh has great experience but, IMO, has no business talking a first-timer into the brain shot.

BUT...the catch here is that a flubbed brain shot is the same as a good body shot....the elephant will probably not drop in its tracks. So what is a PH suppose to do? Wounded elephants can go on forever. Therefore no wounded elephants, and therefore the PH MUST shoot.

At least Marsh is giving you the first crack at killing your own elephant.

This is just another "Secret Rule" that is transparent to the tourist hunter.



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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4572 - 25/10/03 04:20 PM

Surely this is another example of "never say never and never say always about anything African" So much depends upon the variables. Is it the clients 1st Elephant or his (or her) 101st Elephant. Is the shot being taken on the first or last day of safari, is the Elephant on the edge of your area or in the middle of it. Can the client shoot well or not. Does he feel confident of his shooting or not etc etc.

I would discuss these things with the client beforehand and come to some kind of agreement before we go looking for Mr Bigears.

Personally, I like the frontal brainshot as if it's done right you know so immediatly, if it's done wrong then the same applies. A wounded Elephant can walk a long way in a short time and often the best thing a PH can do if the shot was a bad on is to get his shot in asap.

As I said "never say never and never say always" A good PH should always judge each hunt and hunter on it's own merits and act accordingly. Don't forget that we also have a responsibility to the animal and to the other people in the area.

There's an old story about how bad tempered Elephants can put their sexual organs on the base of their feet...... the reason being that if it stamps on you, you're fucked..... that doesn't just apply to the hunter & PH it also applies to every person in the area.....



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: shakari]
      #4574 - 25/10/03 10:50 PM

That's a good one about the location of their organs!

Speaking as the tourist-hunter that I am, I have no problem with the PH entering the fray if I have have screwed up and not brained or at least knocked the elephant down. I have no interest in losing an elephant.

I'm not sure what is meant about the point of trying a frontal brain shot as opposed to the side brain shot, which is much easier, in my opinion.

I've had the PH shoot twice. Once when I was suppose to wait until the PH shot first during an unprovoked charge in which "I" had to enter the fray because the PH didn't get it done. And once when I took a shot that I shouldn't have, and the PH had to bring it down (a situation I will "never" repeat).

But the PH shouldn't tell the client he isn't going to shoot, regradless, when in fact he will, most of the time (see, I didn't say "always") if the ele is still on its feet.

Bill Stewart



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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
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Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4575 - 25/10/03 11:56 PM

Hi Bill,

Glad you liked the pun.

It's not that I'm against the side brain shot and I guess the best shot is the one that's offered. But I personally find the frontal shot easier to describe to the client. I simply tell them to ignore all that meat on the front and imagine a broomstick has been shoved in one earhole and out of the other and the idea is to break that broomstick in the middle....... hey, it works for me!

The good thing about the brain shot (whether its frontal or side on) is that if the bullet goes to the right place the animalf falls down immediatly, if not then it doesn't. And you know straight away if there's a problem. There is no in-between. But that's just my personal opinion.

One of the best things about hunting (other than the hunting itself) is the sitting around a campfire and swopping opinions over a drink. This forum is a lot like a giant version of the campfire....... now if we can only work out how to pass a bottle of good whisky through the PC we'll have cracked it!!!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: shakari]
      #4576 - 26/10/03 05:52 AM

I am 100% in favor of the brain shot...no chasing wounded elephant. I am also in favor of a slight variation of that technique for the frontal brain shot, but for the first-timer, I just don't see that happening, unless mostly by accident (unless the PH is telling the client exactly where to shoot, and that doesn't count).

And if they are coming, in the heat of the moment and if they have their ears back flat against their head, it is that much more difficult to place a frontal brain shot correctly.

Not to mention that when they are coming, it's every man for himself!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4579 - 26/10/03 07:23 AM

Can't argue with that!!!!!!!.............. but what slight variation?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4586 - 26/10/03 08:44 PM

In one of my earlier posts i had narrated an incident,which i had personally witnessed, when a hunter went for the brain shot and screwed it up by injuring the animal.The beast turned around and charged the hunter but the PH in trying to save his client confronted the beast and got killed.Had the PH been ready and taken a followup shot he might have been alive today.I'm sure the client would not have objected.
Apart from this i would like to know as to why one should go for the brain shot when there is such a big target to shoot at.Can we not go for the heart shot and if so what is the min.cal.required.I don't think a 375HH is suitable for a heart shot on an elephant,perhaps a 416 or something bigger.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: iqbal]
      #4587 - 26/10/03 11:28 PM

Igbal,

Sorry about the PH getting killed. I didn't see your story. Can you point me in the right direction to find it?

I try to use the brain shot just because it is clean and efficient. The elephant feels no pain. It is quick and final.

Just to cover all the bases, few hunts are ever the same. The elephant is usually at some angle that doesn't present the best shot, and so forth. It has been said that a heart shot is more certain than risking the brain shot, but you have to find the heart just as one would have to find the brain.

It aggravates me to no end to read about the "shoulder shot", which supposedly takes out the heart, which is never explained. Taylor did that and a host of others continue to do it.

It is said that a heart shot elephant will run off in the direction it is headed, and hence be less of a danger than a missed brain shot, where the elephant may charge. I do not know that to be true as I have only taken two "chest" shots and unfortunately autopsies were not performed.

The one "chest" shot cow fell to the ground but got back up and ran in the opposite direction she had been standing. The other elephant cow I shot in the chest was charging already and it immediately turned at the frontal chest shot, running off for about a 100 yards before dying.

And knowing where the brain is may save your life.

I believe that no one knows what is going to happen 100% of the time. There have been a lot of experienced elephant hunters get killed, sooner or later.

The only thing I know for sure is that there is no such thing as too much gun.

And the .375 H&H doesn't even come close.






--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Edited by Will (26/10/03 11:34 PM)

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4588 - 27/10/03 01:23 AM

I believe that the client should use as large a calibre as he can shoot comfortably and competantly...... but I also have no problem with the client using a .375 H&H if he shoots it well.

I know of the incident that Iqbal talks about. but don't remember the precise details. (it was in the Pilansburg) nor have I seen the video. The PH was using a (I think borrowed) .375 H&H, and although it's sufficient calibre for a client, a .375 is not enough gun for a PH to use on Elephant...... not by a long way. Although the PH missed the frontal brainshot had he been using a larger calibre it might well have been enough to either turn or stun the Elephant concerned. But sometimes shit just happens and we all have to live with that.

At the end of the day, assuming good shot placement a .375 H&H is adequate for Elephant, but a .416 is better and a .458 is better still and so it goes on. But no calibre will kill anything if the shot placement and/or bullet construction are incorrect....... I recently had a client shoot an Eland with a (.375 H&H) Trophy Bonded FMJ which fishtailed like a banana and stayed in the chest cavity....... I would have very serious doubts about how the same bullet might have performed on a brain shot at Mr Bigears!



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
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Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: shakari]
      #4589 - 27/10/03 01:57 AM

I agree with you 100%. Proper placement with a proper bullet is what counts the most. If you hit any D.G.poorly and compound it with a crappy bullet you're in deep yogurt my friend.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #4591 - 27/10/03 07:01 AM

All the talk about shot placement is just great. But if you hunt enough there will be times when it doesn't happen and then you really can be in deep trouble.

And any bullet can go astray inside an animal. What do you do then? Maybe if that .375 H&H has a nice slim barrel you could try to spear it!!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4592 - 27/10/03 08:22 AM

Mr. Murphy is alive and well in the hunting fields as well. But you can still do your part by getting enough practice under field shooting conditions, and by using a good bullet. Yes, as you said, any bullet can go astray inside an animal, but I think you'd have to agree that some are more reliable than others, and are less likely to deviate from their course. For example, if you were hunting Gemsbok, would you be inclined to use a Nosler Ballistic Tip, or a Barnse X?

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Will
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Posts: 303
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Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #4593 - 27/10/03 12:01 PM

It is entertaining to discuss (argure about?) this but the original post was about the .375 for elephant.

It would be different if both of us had extensive experience, but that would require hundreds of elephants (or buff, or whatever). All I know is what I have gathered from my limited experience, and do not feel from what I have seen that the .375 H&H is enough gun. I have had reasonably good results with the 416&470&Lott, but consider the 416 the minimum.

It is said in some book that I do not recall at the moment that, in the jess, not a single hunter, hunting by himself, shooting a .375 (in Zimbabwe I think) survived an elephant charge. This is because you cannot see them coming in the jess except at the last moment. The hunter survivability using the 416/458 stuff is about 50 percent.

And if that isn't enough to convince anybody to use enough gun, I don't know what is.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Loc: South Africa
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4594 - 27/10/03 06:49 PM

Will,

I agree with what you say about bigger is better, as I said in a previous post 416 is better than 375 and 458 is better than 416 and so on. But I personally consider a .375 H&H a minimum calibre for a client. However it's nowhere near enough gun for a PH. All a client needs to do is have a calibre big enough to kill the Elephant. The PH however needs enough gun to stop a charging elephant......There's a world of difference between the two things.

From my personal experience a fairly high percentage of clients pitch up on safari without sufficient field experience of shooting their "big rifle". They may well have shot it every weekend for months before their arrival, but very often they've only shot it on a range and from a bench......... they arrive in camp thinking that because they can shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards on the range and from a bench they know how to shoot. Then I often find that we need to do a little (or often a lot) more work with shooting sticks, freehand and trackers shoulders etc. Also many clients seem to know diddly about bullet drop etc.

If I have a choice of a client shooting a .375 H&H well or a 458 (or bigger) not so well, I always prefer them to shoot the .375 H&H.

I'd also agree with your point about terrain. I've hunted Elephants in the Zambezi Valley (amongst other places) and would heartily agree that the thick bush there would make use of a .375 H&H considerably more difficult than in the more open terrain of somewhere like the Selous or Burigi Reserves of Tanzania.

As I've also said somewhere else, "never say never and never say always" about anything African.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: shakari]
      #4596 - 27/10/03 10:01 PM

This probably shouldn't turn into "I want the last word" sort of post, so I'll throw in one more, but elephant hunting is a very broad and multifaceted topic. Then I'll give it up.

I'd agree that a first-timer that goes elephant hunting may be better off with a .375 H&H. But my first time, I wasn't going elephant-hunting, I was going to hunt elephants.

I had read most everything that has ever been written about elephant-hunting. I thought I knew how to execute the brain shot, and how close to get before shooting (don't tell me you're an elephant hunter if any telescope is involved), how much gun to use, and so forth, in an effort to emulate the old-time elephant hunters. Luckily, everything went as hoped.

It has been said that there are three stages in dangerous game hunting. First, there is success and overconfidence, then fear from close encounters, and then, hopefully, recovery. I think I am firmly established in the fear regime.

And as I have said before,

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.








--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: elephant hunting with the .375hh [Re: Will]
      #4598 - 28/10/03 05:33 AM

Will,it was posted on 05/02/03 under the heading "how close have you got,how close has dangerous" by Nitrox.
By the way the Rhino which is just as bulky and tough as an elephant is always given a shoulder shot(at least i've not seen a head shot on a rhino),why is that?Is it because of the horn in front of the brain or is the head a more difficult shot than the elephants.

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