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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Regulating a DR.
      #42614 - 30/11/05 02:32 PM

When a DR is regulated is it regulated for a specific type of ammunition...ie Federal or Kynoch's 570 grain solid. Or is it regulated to a specific bullet weight with a certain anount of cordite...ie any 570 grain bullet will do whether it be from GS custom, Woodleigh or Barnes; As long as it is the same weight with the same amount of cordite?


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iwantadouble
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Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42617 - 30/11/05 03:39 PM

I am no expert, but it was my understanding that it is regulated for a given weight bullet traveling at a given speed (measured in terms of powder/cordite charge).

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42619 - 30/11/05 03:50 PM

Bulldog,

If you are referring to a Searcy, it will regulate with nearly anything, in my experience.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42621 - 30/11/05 03:58 PM

Consider that cordite isn't made any more for one thing.

Also consider that different burn rates of powder will affect how the gun recoils with different types and weights of bullets.
Barrel time, initial back thrust, bullet weight, yadda yadda yadda will all effect how the gun responds to a load.

Some rifles are more finicky than others.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42623 - 30/11/05 04:27 PM


A certain bullet weight at a certain speed.

However as has been said before,
bullet shape and different powders
can behave differently in different guns
and cartridges.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #42624 - 30/11/05 04:47 PM

So if I want to use a flat nose bullet as a solid and a standard soft point as my expanding bullet would this be possible and still get good accuracy and performance? How should I ask Butch to regulate it if I wanted this set-up?

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42625 - 30/11/05 05:32 PM

In reply to:

So if I want to use a flat nose bullet as a solid and a standard soft point as my expanding bullet would this be possible and still get good accuracy and performance? How should I ask Butch to regulate it if I wanted this set-up?




The short answer is - you're going to need to pick one.

You can HOPE that the second load coincidentally shoots to the same point of impact (and they may), but realistically you're going to have to pick one or the other for him to use as the regulation load and then expect to comprimise on the other bullets.

Most doubles are regulated with softs, then the owner has to tinker with their hand loads for solids until they obtain acceptable groups of the two.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42627 - 30/11/05 06:28 PM


bulldog,

Regulate with Softs and then work a load up for the Solids.

I think nearly all DR's I've used will shoot (I can get to shoot)
softs and solids to the same POA.

And since you are working with a known gun that is new
and are known to shoot, I don't think you will have a problem.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #42631 - 30/11/05 07:48 PM

Since I don't handload, which custom manufacturers are the best? Will most of them make up ammo to my spec's? I have heard that stars and stripes ammo is a good operation.

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500Nitro
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42632 - 30/11/05 08:02 PM


Superior Ammunition somewhere in the US.

I know a few people who get ammo made by them
to their specs.

500 Nitro


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Charles_Helm
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Reged: 09/11/05
Posts: 337
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #42642 - 01/12/05 12:07 AM

In reply to:

Superior Ammunition somewhere in the US.





Superior Ammunition, Sturgis, South Dakota.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Loc: Nevada
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42646 - 01/12/05 12:42 AM

Have you thought of getting educated and equipped to do your own handloading for your new double rifle?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42648 - 01/12/05 01:46 AM

I hate to say this but, either take up handloading or cancel your order and get a bolt rifle instead. Double rifles rarely work out to the full satisfaction of non-handloaders.
---------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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mkd
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Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 2
Loc: columbus georgia usa
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42652 - 01/12/05 04:33 AM

New to this forum, with great joy have read comments and accounts. Although I desire to own a double rifle I would like to post this account that happened to me involving a double shotgun. Thanks

A Stevens Story, new to forum but please bear with the shotgun story,

This one began life as a Stevens Model 335 16 Ga. Side by side with 28 inch barrels. Although this one was a low end shooter it had greater hunts to record. I have with envy read this forum and looked at all the pictures posted and thought one day I might have a true side by side rifle. That may not happen anytime soon and while this is a double rifle forum I felt compelled to submit this account.
The Stevens held hidden in its buttstock an old piece of tattered paper with a history of initial purchase and to whom it was handed down through the years. I won’t mention the last names listed however the first are: Dock C/Gregory S/Ronald D/Ronald D. Jr. / Robert W/ Thomas E/Caleb M/ and Susan D. I can say it was purchased new I assume, in 1940. The Stevens was passed a total of eight times before I lay claim to it at a pawn shop. In 1968, the Stevens passed to what was apparently the final family member. This owner was not happy with the configuration of the factory gun and a series of changes were made.
The barrels were shortened to 25.5 inches, sling swivels, and a ramp front sight installed. Inlayed into the existing rib with a single fixed blade rear is a quarter rib of graceful design. The trigger guard was replaced with a LC Smith trigger guard (checked serial number); the stock (fiddle back maple) was refinished as was the forearm (both recheckered). The entire action was re-cased and the remaining metal furniture was rust blued. The only external markings on the gun is engraved on the quarter rib that simply state;
“Regulated Rem Slugs”
TB Kirkland
For what I thought was a fortune at the time I made my first firearms purchase of this Stevens in December 1978. I was 18 years of age, I am now 47 and just three weeks ago removed the original hard rubber buttplate and found the paper. Upon my purchase I also bought a box of 25 Remington slugs (no 5 packs at that time), figured that’s what the writing on the quarter rib was for. At that point in my life I didn’t have a clue about regulation (still don’t know much), all I knew was to load up and head to the range. Well by now you have figured out the old gun shot them slugs like a rifle at 50 yards. Right/Left groups to point of aim and consistently 2.5 to 4.0” groups (young eyes) slightly larger groups as my eyes have aged. I have hunted with this gun every year since then. I could never explain this guns performance except that it was a fluke. However I was reading a post on this forum and someone mention relieving the barrels on one side or the other, I thought that must be it so I checked the muzzles to see if they were squared. After much examination I could find no indication that had been done however I did note the gun had an odd crowning appearance. When looking at the muzzles it appeared that each barrel left more than right had been recessed, but only on the internal bore. I don’t know why I had never noticed this before but after all these years of shooting the ole gun I had ignored this particular trait. Finding this made me more curious so I began to research the last owner of this gun and found that she, (Susan) was still alive and kicking and had very intimate knowledge about the gun and its workings. She confirmed the markings and the regulation ammo being Remington slugs, or as she said “the cheapest I could find at the time”. She also explained that TB Kirkland was a machinist formerly employed by the government to build aircraft parts during World War II. By the way TB Kirkland is “Tonya B. Kirkland” also a lady. Susan explained she loved to hunt deer and always wanted a side by side slug gun. After many discussions with Tonya the two decided it could be done and at a reasonable cost. Subsequently the sight selection was made; the quarter rib (design came from a picture in a European Gun Catalog) was machined and installed as was a set of sling swivels. The two ladies set off behind the barn and started working at 15 yards. The best I can tell they shot and shortened the barrel one half inch at a time hoping this would accomplishment the desired result. Finally at 25.5 inches they decided it wasn’t going to work and the recoil was taking its toil. Susan said they shot 46 slugs that first day. One week passed before they returned to make another attempt, this time with a new idea. Tonya brought a 6” half round file that closely matched the inside bore of the gun. Susan explained the single leaf sight was returned to center and a line scribed as a point of reference to start at. They started at 25 yards and fired two slugs from the right barrel; the result was two shots touching 5” to the left and 2” low. Tonya then took the half round file and removed an unspecified amount of metal from the inside bore end of the right barrel on the right side. Two more shots were fired and this time, still touching they were only 2” to the left and 2” low. Once again Tonya removed an unspecified amount from the same location of the right barrel and fired two more shots. Success, the two shots cut the outer edge of the bull at thee o’clock and still 2” low. At this point they began work with the left barrel, this one proved a little more challenging however after 14 shots the left barrel was one-half inch off the bull at ten o’clock. The two ended the shooting session for the day and returned the following morning to address the elevation. The following day Tonya filed a shallow V in the rear blade, no particular depth and shot two four shot groups R/L, R/L. The result was 2 inch groups at 25 yards and 3.5” groups at 50 yards. Susan said by the time they finished working with the gun hunting season was over. During the next few months cold blue was applied to metal parts and plans made for the next hunting season. Unfortunately Susan would suffer a stroke the following year and never fulfill her dreams of taking a whitetail with her double. In 1971 Susan gave the gun to a friend who had a small gun shop and ask if he would sell it for her. The friend sold it two days later for $125.00. Of course Susan had long since forgotten about the gun until I called. I got to tell you talking to her made tears come to my eyes. Anyway after relaying some deer that I had taken with the double over the years I offered to send the gun to her as I felt she should have it, she refused and said she was happy to know the gun had served its purpose well. Anyway we exchanged addresses and said good-bye. I was off from work this particular week so I made a few careful calls and showed up at Susan’s house the day before thanksgiving with gun in hand. Her love for that gun was unbelievable, she held it for hours telling of all the details we had gone over the week previous. I again told her of the deer hunts that I had shared with the Stevens and offered her the gun one more time. She refused and said for me to keep enjoying it as she felt it was with someone who truly loved what it was. Later that evening I left on my journey home and had a feeling that I still can’t describe. I live in Georgia and will be using the gun with a renewed vigor this year. Sorry for being long winded however I felt many of you enjoy this account.


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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: mkd]
      #42656 - 01/12/05 04:57 AM

MKD,

Welcome to the forum. Excelent story, and also a clever idea. You are very lucky to have such a good gun.

I also have a double barrel shotgun shortened to use slugs, but I never achieved much of a good regulation, so I usually load with slugs and buckshot.

Fred


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mkd
.224 member


Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 2
Loc: columbus georgia usa
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: doublegunfan]
      #42658 - 01/12/05 05:37 AM

glad you enjoyed, I have a few old stevens that I plan on tinkering with. thanks for the reply.

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: mkd]
      #42661 - 01/12/05 05:59 AM

mkd:

Welcome to the party. How about updating your profile and listing your location (country at a minimum).

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: tinker]
      #42668 - 01/12/05 08:25 AM

I have wanted to take up handloading. I guess this is a good excuse.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42685 - 01/12/05 12:17 PM

I'll just say that you don't have to reload to enjoy your double. It can be expensive to have ammo developed for your rifle and expensive to have your ammo made for you but its not that big of a deal.

For example, JJ and co developed three loads for my rifle, a 500gr solid, a 500gr soft and a 350gr soft. Costs are about what you'd pay for Federal 470 ammo.

Some day I might take up reloading but I don't need to wait til then to enjoy my rifle.

JPK


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bulldog563
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: JPK]
      #42688 - 01/12/05 01:05 PM

Do they all shoot to relatively the same POA.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42693 - 01/12/05 04:02 PM

Bulldog,

My Searcy .500 was regulated with Woodleigh 570 gr. softs over 110 grains IMR4831.

I have also gotten it to regulate perfectly with the following:

110 gr. IMR 4831 570 grain Woodleigh solids
110 gr. IMR 4831 550 grain Bridger solids
106 gr. IMR 4831 570 grain GS Custom FN solids
103 gr. H4350 570 grain GS Custom FN solids
103 gr. H4350 550 grain Bridger solids
103 gr. H4350 570 grain Woodleigh solids
103 gr. H4350 570 grain Woodleigh softs
96 gr. Re 15 570 grain Woodleigh soft with Kynoch filler (have not really messed with the other bullets using this load)
45.0 gr. XMP5744 500 grain cast lead.

So overall that rifle is not too picky at all.

I suggest having Butch regulate your .500 with 110 grains IMR4831 and 570 grain Woodleigh solids. From there I am sure you can get FN solids to regulate if you want. But I would not go with a non-standard regulation as it could make you rifle hard to sell should you ever choose to part with it.


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bulldog563
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Loc: California
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: 500grains]
      #42699 - 01/12/05 05:33 PM

500,

When you decrease powder charge by a few grains, how much velocity do you lose on average?

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JPK
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42706 - 02/12/05 01:08 AM

Bulldog563,

Responding to your earlier question on whether all of the loads developed by JJ shoot to the same point of impact, the answer is yes.

I should also point out that the initial cost is about the price for Federal ammo when ordered from JJ in batches of 100 rounds but the price drops with the second order since you only get charged the labor to develop the loads once. Drops further if you save your brass and send it to JJ for reuse.

I would guess your 500 ammo would cost more than mine, but the brass would be the biggest expense and that is amortised as you save it and have it reloaded.

JPK

PS, as an example of JJ's work, The Federal 300gr TBBC soft load shot really great out of my 375H&H bolt rifle (under an inch for 100yd three shot groups) but the TB Sledgehammer solid load shot three or four inches low and left at 50yds. I sent the rifle to JJ and he developed a 300gr Woodleigh solid load that shoots just about exactly where the soft load shoots. I use this load as an example since the rifle has a scope and I can shoot it off the bench better and so can better see the results. The load he developed shoots about a quarter to a half inch higher than the TBBC at 50 yds and into the same group at 100yds. Composite groups of two softs and a solid or vice versa grow to about an inch; and I'm not sure it isn't really me since I always shot the composite groups last.


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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: JPK]
      #42740 - 02/12/05 07:51 AM

How does it work? Do you send the rifle to JJ and Co and he figures out which loads work and sends them back to you or does he send you a bunch of different loads and you tell him which works?

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JPK
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Re: Regulating a DR. [Re: bulldog563]
      #42770 - 02/12/05 12:30 PM

BullDog,

You send the rifle. He, really they, since he has guys working for him, find what shoots best in your rifle per your instructions. For example, I wanted the two 500gr loads but also a 350gr, or so soft point load too. They find them and load how many you want and send it all to you.

Superior ammo will do this too. The difference is that JJ will tell you what loads worked and give you all the data, in case you start to reload. Since you only pay for the labor to find the loads once, the overall cost goes down on a second order; if you save cases the cost for the next batch goes down even more.

Since your rifle will be a new Searcy, you will know what the regulation load is, which will be a huge time saver for the next two loads since finding the first load is typically the tough one from what I've read and been told. I bought my rifle second hand and there was no info available on the regulation load.

FWIW, Id have Butch regulate your rifle for the solid of your choice since a solid from a 500 NE will kill anything and be your required bullet for the primary quarry, elephant. And a solid will kill a buff just fine - it was what my PH very strongly urged for buff, might even have required it if I hadn't said I'd use whatever he suggested. Roger Whittall, my PH's boss and a more or less retired and very, very experienced PH also preffered, maybe required, solids. Both liked the Woodleighs and it was the only one Roger suggested by email. My PH, Richard Tabor, a much younger guy pretty well into ballistics and bullet performance prefered the Woodleighs but was open to the monos, but wouldn't shoot them out of his double, a Kreighoff 470.

Hope this helps. Happy to answer any q's you have on this topic, but I'm nowhere near the most experienced guys here on this forum, especcially when it comes to finding loads that work in a double or reloading for a double, obviously. I do know what worked for me regarding my rifle when it became obvious that no factory ammo shot really well. And I know how well my rifle, loads and bullet selection worked on the game I shot with it.

JPK


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