Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Used Double Trouble

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: NitroX]
      #41157 - 10/11/05 01:21 PM

Thanks NitroX!


In reply to:


In reply to:
I think the source of the reloaded ammunition is, or was mentioned briefly.



In reply to:
I also checked the "regulating" loads that John LaSala of Safari Arms Ltd loaded and they plot distinctly.



http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/778105163






--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: tinker]
      #41161 - 10/11/05 03:06 PM

My London Sporting Park Ltd, 450/400 3 1/4" uses .408 diameter bullets.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3494
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: NE450No2]
      #41171 - 10/11/05 04:37 PM

In reply to:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/778105163




Holy Shit! That was a bloody long-winded reminder of why I never visit AR anymore !!!!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: tinker]
      #41173 - 10/11/05 04:54 PM

tinker

I think you brught up something I didn't see in the AR forum and that is Oily barrels
or chambers. I know that is deadly.

FYI, the Woodleigh Steel jaket solids are fraction undersize. From the testing
I have done I still load 1 or 2 grains nder for Solids over what I load for the SN's

Also, the taper on a Woodleigh Bullet that is designed for DR's starts WELL before the cannelure,
not at the Cannelure as you say the Hornady does (ie 470 etc).

mbogo375
Thanks for the comments.
Re "but with old barrel steel of dubious origin how can you ever be 100% certain."
That is why I don't take any chances with my guns - I can't afford to wipe out a set
of barrels so once I stick to what works and generally don't stuff around once I have
it working.

FYI, I don't work on them as in a Gunsmith sense, I just like shooting them but I do
tend to do one hell of a lot of study, reading, research all about the old days etc +
I had a lot of verbal info given to me by 2 people in particular which helped when buying guns.

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (10/11/05 05:03 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: tinker]
      #41174 - 10/11/05 04:57 PM

It was my impression that Ernest was having a friend in Georgia do reloads for him, in addition to purchasing regulating loads from John LaSala. But since Emory did not have a stuck case, it is unlikely that he is the one who damaged the chambers. Ernest did not have a stuck case either, which leads me to believe that the rifle was already damaged when it was sold to Ernest.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: tinker]
      #41175 - 10/11/05 05:09 PM

It seems to me people are getting confused on some pretty important points.

After hearing the chambering concerns from JJ, I measured all the fired cases and loads sent by Ernest. I made a stand to use a micrometer to check diameters at the same place on all cases. I recorded two diameter readings (90 degrees difference)on each case then ploted the larger of each pair. I got two distinct groupings for the fired brass that almost certainly corresonded with the barrels each was fired in. I got similar results with the still loaded rounds and with the four that I pulled bullets from. That suggested to me that even after having been reloaded by "Ernest's friend", those rounds reflect their firing history.

The "regulating loads from John LaSala did not look to me as if they had been opened until I did that as a follow-up to measuring the 39 loads/cases that Ernest sent loose. Those 20 rounds plotted in a different group from the other four groups and all had smaller diameters. John said those were the only 450/400 rounds he loaded for Ernest and explained they should all have produced ~2150 fps. He used his own dies. My guess is that those rounds would not have chambered. I also continue to wonder about the turned shoulders on the A-zoom snap caps - was that required for them to chamber?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: jep21]
      #41188 - 10/11/05 08:29 PM

Emory,
I guess I missed this in other threads. What load was the WR regulated for, stamped on the barrel flats?

As I remember you did not fire the rifle over a chronograph, correct?

The more I read about this, the more I tend to agree that whatever damage was inflicted upon the rifle was there when Ernest bought the rifle. As I stated before Ernest doesn't know what to look for to determine if the rifle was damaged. It just looked good!

400 Nitro Express and a friend of his visited Moss, the guy Ernest bought the rifle from. They inspected 3 rifles as potential buys. 400 NE and friend walked away after the inspections.
All the rifles had problems!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: Rusty]
      #41195 - 11/11/05 12:32 AM

Yeah, we went to look at three specific rifles, but he actually had seven for us to look at. Waste of time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41209 - 11/11/05 03:22 AM

500N-

Thanks.
Note that my comment on bullet diameter was specific to the pair of cupric jacketed RNSN bullets pictured there. I haven't fiddled with Hornady solids, at this point I don't use solids in any rifle I own.



jep21-

Just exactly what is the issue with the chambers where they won't take a round of ammunition?
It was noted earlier that a standard chamber reamer had been run though them.
Are they fractured and sprung with a mangled tang of material hanging around in the space where a round of ammo should go?


--Tinker







In reply to:

FYI, the Woodleigh Steel jaket solids are fraction undersize. From the testing
I have done I still load 1 or 2 grains nder for Solids over what I load for the SN's

Also, the taper on a Woodleigh Bullet that is designed for DR's starts WELL before the cannelure,
not at the Cannelure as you say the Hornady does (ie 470 etc).




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: Rusty]
      #41227 - 11/11/05 06:55 AM

All,

I see several questions from recent posts I'll try to address.

On the issue of "oily". I wiped it down while doing an initial cleaning the night it arrived.

I think the flats were marked for 60 grains, along with other proof marks, 450/400, etc. I don't remember if it was marked .411. I do think 3 1/4 was marked on the top of one of the barrels.

The rifle was clearly used, but had no damage that was obvious to me. Rifling looked strong but I did have the impression that that the breech end of the left barrel was a little softer. There was no pitting in barrels or chambers that I could discern.

I think I've not done a good job of explaining the firing and each barrel's respective group sizing. If the barrels had been regulated for the ammunition provided, I would have probably had a loose 4-5" group.

If I had gotten that kind of performace, I would have probably tried some shots from a steady supported position just to see how much tighter it would shoot. That would have still been with no sling and with the fore end supported in my hand as nearly the same as I was doing offhand. The shots I tried using a sitting position (no sling) printed righ in with the offhand shots.

I did not use a chronograph and that leaves a glaring void in what I would like to know. When I talked to Ernest (think I was in Egypt then) about the firing results, he he thought about 2200fps should bring the groups into convergence. The implication was that the rounds I shot may have been loaded to lower levels. He seemed a bit vague and did not confirm that the rounds he had sent were the ones that provided the accuracy he had mentioned.

Regards,
Emory

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: jep21]
      #41238 - 11/11/05 10:49 AM

Something that continues to confuse me around what I've read here about this gun is the chambering issue.

Is it true that a chamber reamer has recently been run through those chambers, and still after that's been done ammo won't chamber in the gun?

What is the problem with the chambers?
What is it about the fit that won't allow a round to chamber?

also
When you speak of 'sling/no sling' are you saying that some of the shots fired were shot with sling tension as if the rifle were being shot in the fashion that one would shoot a rifle during High Power rifle competition?

and
Aren't double rifles meant to be shot with the barrels firmly grasped in the support hand, forward of the forend wood?


--Tinker






--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: tinker]
      #41260 - 11/11/05 02:37 PM

Tinker,

The chambering question is one of the most puzzling aspects to me also. It seems intuitive that a reamer would clean it so a standard round would fit.

The sling issue is easier. I didn't use a sling at any time with the double. With any of my other rifles I would have used a hasty sling from the sitting position and would have expected accuracy about equal to accuracy off a bench with forearm supported, rifle in the left hand and a hasty sling in use. With the double, on both the offhand and sitting positions, I used a left hand grip near the front of the forearm with fingers part way around the barrels.

Emory

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: jep21]
      #41264 - 11/11/05 03:46 PM

Thanks for the clarification on the sling question.

The chambering...
Hm.

I just don't know what to think.
Don't know how to ask -- can't even concieve how a chamber reamer could run through and come back out, then standard ammo couldn't ???

I'll be content to wonder on that one.

Funny how this string of threads on this rifle and it's issues have affected how I've been looking at a friend's 9.3mm German double (which I covet)
I had it in my hands today, I noticed things about it this afternoon that stood out and screamed for a closer look, months ago when I first handled it and shot it I'd seen the same things, but they didn't *really* get my attention like they did today.


I'll just have to look forward to hearing some kind of report from the JJ end of this story. Do you think you could get a more detailed account from him on the chambering issue, and also what about the rifle suggests to him that it's barrels are damaged?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41654 - 16/11/05 06:56 AM

400NitroExpress:

What did old man Moss have for you to look at? What was wrong with them?

Did you visit him at his house?



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41679 - 16/11/05 11:56 AM

Clark:

Yeah, I paid him a visit. Am I remembering correctly that your dad looked at a .500 Westley there? I didn't see it, but a dealer I know told me about it. Didn't sound good.

There were three .400/.360s - 2 Evans boxlocks and 1 Alex Henry SLE. Also a Midland boxlock .470, a Manton boxlock .470, a Harper boxlock .450/.400 3 1/4", and a Westley droplock .470.

The little Midland boxlock was the best gun there. Redone in England in recent years and decently done. New chopper lump barrels, Brummie proved after 1989, still new condition. Had the gun been in that condition with original barrels with excellent bores....well, it still would have been a Midland - solid enough but not big $. Rebarreled? He wanted $25K. I felt that it was worth a lot less.

The .470 Westley was, like most of the rest, a glossy refinish with curb appeal that photographed well. Restocked, barrels and furniture reblacked, action recolored. Fantastic piece of wood, but not particularly well executed. Barrel striking had been ruined with a polishing wheel, engraving poorly recut. The bores were gone. Said it still shot great and I can believe that (you'd be amazed). But, when they look that bad, it doesn't matter how it shoots - it's an action and fore-end, period. I didn't feel that it was worth $35K.
-------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41688 - 16/11/05 01:16 PM

When guys first started talking about these guns it sounded like a Gold Mine of good guns coming for sale. I was sorry I wasn't involved and it was so far away.

Just goes to show you that not everyone knows what the Hell they are talking about, doesn't it.

400NitroExpress

Thanks for the info on the rifles, makes me feel better anyway.





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41745 - 17/11/05 03:17 AM

400Nitro:

You are correct about the .500 WR. And I remember chatting with you about Mr. Moss' guns at teh DRSS hunt.

I even spoke with guys from WR who said they saw some of his guns. He had a WR that he was selling "as original" - but it had Ferlach barrels on it.

Glad we walked away from those guns.

I remember talking with Bill and he said that all of his guns are sent back to England where he has "one person that only works for me."

Any idea of who this person is????

I too saw the Midland, Manton, Harper and Westely Droplock .470. If I recall correctly, the WR .470 didn't lock each time I closed the action.


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41749 - 17/11/05 04:27 AM

Clark:

He never identified the man, although he mentioned him several times. With the exception of the Midland, all of the guns I saw had been refinished in a fashion (poorly) that you usually don't get in England, but is possible anywhere I suppose. I got the impression that they were being redone here.

I seem to recall having heard that the bores in the .500 were bad? What did you think of it?

Mick:

I don't think you missed much.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41751 - 17/11/05 04:45 AM

400Nitro:

When I inspected the rifles, ALL (and I do mean all of them) had dirty bores with big powder residue flakes in them.

When I cleaned the barrels, I noticed SEVERE pitting in the grooves and on the rifling. This was not a little bit of pitting mind you.

All this happend shortly after Fred blew a barrel on his H&H. So, the deal ended right there.

At Bill's house I looked at the other rifles and took my cleaning kit with me. I swabbed a number of barrels and guess what? Same problem. BAD pitting in my opinion.

Bill didn't know how dirty the rifles where until I showed him.

That made me wonder about the condition of the rifles as a whole. I walked away from that immediately and Bill was not a happy camper.

Now after what you said, I'm glad I did!

Can you tell me more about the .500 WR that was at the dealer you mention? That may very well be the one we were going to buy - I'd like to know what else you know about it.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41752 - 17/11/05 04:57 AM

Good God-

Looks like there's been *a lot* of money thrown at killing the value of quite a few very nice guns here.

It seems like they're pretty blatantly screwed too.


What a mess.
Pity for those in the world who highly value London made high grade double rifles.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41756 - 17/11/05 06:12 AM

Clark:

You were there before me. I think it must be the same .500. The dealer saw it along with the .470 when he was there. He said the same thing about the bores. Other than the Middy, I didn't see any nice bores either. I will accept Cordite burn up to a point, as long as the lands are still square, but not pits.

I looked at the Holland in Dallas. It was refinished, but very professionally done. Although it's been a while, I remember thinking that the bores looked fine. The load sounded good and I know it to have been compentently assembled. From the photos, it wasn't a pressure burst - had to have been a flaw in the right tube. Just a freak occurence. I hear the new Holland is exceptional. We'll be shooting it soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41786 - 17/11/05 11:38 AM

Marc:

I take it you are referring to Fred's (CFA's) new Holland? I believe it's another Dominion grade in .475 NE, right?

I wish Fred would get his old butt back on the threads and post some pics! I enjoyed chatting with him over dinner in Crowell and am happy he found something that replaced his blown one.

Will you be at DSC this year? I'm bringing my dad down for two days.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41796 - 17/11/05 12:14 PM

Be glad to see you and meet your dad in Dallas!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jep21
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: Rusty]
      #41809 - 17/11/05 02:04 PM

All,

The 450/400 3 1/4 dies and 10 rounds of Kynoch ammunition arrived today. For thse who have followed closely, I think most can understand this makes it easier to presume no ill motives associated with the sale. Even an explanation for the delay a couple of months earlier could have probably done the same.

I hope to be able to project a technical path forward in a few days.

Regards,
Emory

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Used Double Trouble [Re: clark7781]
      #41817 - 17/11/05 03:48 PM

Clark:

Yes, I wish he would. It's another Dominion .500/.465. I have photos but have not handled it yet. Those who have say it's in fine original condition. Spoke to a guy in England last week who shot it when it was still over there and said it was a great shooter. I don't think Fred's feet have touched the ground since it came in.

Glad you're coming to Dallas. It'll be great to see you again and I look forward to meeting your dad. Sounds like we might get lucky and have most of last year's Hog Hunt crew together there. That will be fun!

Watch out for that bench warrant though.
------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 111 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating: *****
Topic views: 11731

You rated this topic a 5.
Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved