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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Actions for the big stuff
      #39909 - 28/10/05 08:54 AM


On the forum for double rifle I am making a desprate attempt to describe building. I was just wondering if any of you would be intrested in large actions for cartridges such as the .416 Rigby and such. If you are there is the often over looked P-14 and P-17 actions. These actions can be made to look rather nice and if you would like to know what is involved I would be glad to try to describe what is involved.

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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #39914 - 28/10/05 10:18 AM

Go ahead-

I'm liking this benchtop perspective on things.
Big bore bolt guns are lots of fun too...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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JPeterson
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Reged: 08/10/05
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Loc: Wisconsin USA
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #39915 - 28/10/05 10:42 AM

I know I'm interested

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tony577
.224 member


Reged: 28/10/05
Posts: 11
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #39920 - 28/10/05 12:37 PM

great idea

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: tony577]
      #39922 - 28/10/05 12:53 PM

This would interest me. I have a couple of Remington model 30's clunking around here that I don't use. They might inspire me to make them into a bigbore. Or get enough interest that I could sell them .

Bill

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #39954 - 28/10/05 03:27 PM

Judson,

"Desperate attempt" and "if you are interested?"

I am sure you know what the answer is considering how popular your double rifle posts have been!

Do post the big bore details here. I am sure that there is no member here who would not be interested.

Thanks in advance and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Raff
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Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #39986 - 29/10/05 12:34 AM

Judson;
By all means, please post away! I have a 30EX in
the works now and the double rifle information you have
shared with us has been just great. I live for this
stuff. Thanks for the information.
Raff

--------------------
.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Raff]
      #39998 - 29/10/05 07:52 AM

OK!!! Here we go!!! The P-14, P-17 Enfields are one of my favorite actions and probably the most over looked due to the amount of work needed to clean them up and make them purdy. Since they were only made for a few years for both the British and the U.S., (P-14 chambered in 303 and the P-17 in 3006 for the U.S.) the pristeen ones should probably be left origional for the collectors. Besides there are plenty of butcher jobs out there for dirt cheep prices.
All of the P series Enfields are goog even the Eddystone. The stories of cracked recievers is usually from improper removal of the barrel. To check the action for cracks hang it from a piece of string or wire and tap it with some thing hard. If it rings and does not sound dull all should be fine. On the Eddystones there are a couple of things to know. First they are cheep, second they are the toughest both strength wise and cutting wise.
My .366 DGW is on one of these actions and it is great.
Weather you use a P-14 or aP-17 action if you are building a magnum use a P-14 bolt and you do not need a counter bore any more or extractor cut and thus give the case head a bit more suport.
I usually cut off the ears and contour the rear reciever bridge to either model 70 or usually 98 Mauser dementions as far as the difference in height goes. Some Enfields have a oblong hole under the rear sight. This should be filled with a steel plug welded into place. This is a good job for either a TIG or MIG welder as using the old oxi torch can put enough heat into the receiver to warp it some. One other solution is to make a plug and a bridge for the front ring and end up with some thing like a double square bridge mauser. ( more about that in the future.)
In these two pictures you will see a "junker" which is how my .366 started and what can be done. The finished rifle is my .366

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Gibbs505
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Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #40022 - 29/10/05 01:25 PM

Already done, although not me personally!
here I am with my 505 Gibbs built on a P14 action. Will post a coulpe more pics in a few days!



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So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

Edited by Gibbs505 (29/10/05 01:25 PM)

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Gibbs505
.333 member


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Gibbs505]
      #40028 - 29/10/05 03:13 PM

Ok, here ar a couple of photos of the Gibbs!




And here is a [hoto of a 505 Gibbs cartridge! The others are, from the left, 6.5x55 swede, 303 British and 300 Winchester magnum!


--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Gibbs505]
      #40095 - 30/10/05 01:49 PM

Geez, mate! Your sizing die has murdered the neck on that .505 cartridge!
I'd open up the die a bit if it was mine.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Gibbs505
.333 member


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Marrakai]
      #40112 - 30/10/05 04:42 PM

The die is english and set for origional brit spec's!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Gibbs505]
      #40199 - 31/10/05 11:52 AM

Nice rifle but I would like it more if it had a wood stock but I am a traditonalist so what can I say, I guess I am a stick in the mud but that is just the way I am. However this proves my point about the Enfield being a great action for the big stuff.
Now if you look at the picture of my action you will see how to get rid of the "dogs leg" bolt handle. First you fordge it straight then cut it off to the length you want, save the knob! Thread the shank and take the knob, thread the hole in it, crank it on then cut off the excess and weld all around the threads. Next, reshape the knob and in this case I did a five pannel checkering job on it.
The action can be cut back quite far nearly all the way to the ejector. On the left side of the action more metal can be removed eliminating the button for the bolt release however do not cut forward enough to remove the camming serface for primary extraction!!!! No metal should be removed from the feed ramp, or lower recoil lug or not more then what is the thickness of the top lug. This will weaken the action and is why it is not recomended by many gunsmiths to open this action up for such cartridges as the Gibbs. The 505 is fine in this action as it is a rather low pressure cartridge but let some hand loader who has dreams of 585 Nyata performance load for it and you could have problems.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Marrakai]
      #40201 - 31/10/05 12:05 PM


In responce to the comment about your loading dies, 505 feel free to correct me!!! I think you will find out that the "505 Gibbs has a true diameter of .505" and the rifle shown is using the American diameter of .510" diameter for the barrel and bullet diameter. I have seen this with several .505 Gibbs built over here. Using .510" gives better bullet selection but causes a few problems with the dies. If you want you could probably fit your siving die with a .510" long tappered expander and solve those problems and get better accuracy with no other alteration to the die set.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Gibbs505
.333 member


Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #40237 - 31/10/05 04:46 PM

Thanks, it is a true .505 bore, I specified this from the barrel maker and from the dealer who supplied the dies. He has laso given me a lot of help in setting me up with the reloading! Big british cartridges are a lot different from the 30.06!!

I have learnt a lot about the cartridge and reloading, inculding wrecking one shellholder, and sticking a case into the resizing die!!

More fun along the way I am sure!!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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deant
.224 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 47
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #40258 - 01/11/05 12:50 AM

Good stuff! Could have used info on the Enfield to bigbore about a year ago! I am putting the finishing touches on my 600overkill. I built it on an Enfield doing all the work myself. I am doing the finish work now. I have shot it with 1040grain lead bullets at 1800fps+ thats my plinking loads. Should shoot some 900grain woodleighs at 2200fps soon. I winged it on this project doing somethings the unconventional way. But so far she came out well and I learned alot on the way.
Dean

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: deant]
      #40310 - 01/11/05 12:11 PM


The big enfield can also have it's really only weak point fixed by using a coil spring on the ejector and doing away with the leaf spring set up which is prone to breakage, usually at a bad time. To do this just cut off the leaf spring from the ejector and cut two shallow notches in it that match up with a stout coil spring. Solder the coil spring in place with a low tempriture solder and cut to length.
In many cases the rails of the action and the length has to be altered and here we must proceed with care. As I mentioned the front lower recoil lug should never be cut back further then the top lug. However the rear of the action can be cut back quite a bit. The rails should be opened up very carefully or you will have cartridges popping up on their own and a junk action. To open up the rails you need a hand full of dummy rounds and the ability to anilise things and lots of patients. The radius of the rails should for the most part match that of the cartridge. The shoulder of the cartridge should angle up as the bolt is moved forward and as the bullet rides up the feed ramp the cartridge should pop up and under the extractor. To get everything to work right you might have to polish down the feed ramp. If the cartridges are binding do not get carried away with the grinder as the problem may be with the follower. It's radius too has to match that of the cartridges. In any case the rails should be just slightly wider then the cartridge head at the rear and closely match the tapper of the round.
The cartridge must come up enough when in the magizine and the bolt fully to the rear so that the bolt hits the case head as it is moved forward. If as the bolt is moved forward and hits the cartridge the round dives down check your mag spring and the front of the rails.
This is really trial and error and you must go slowly or you will get into trouble. If you try this and need some help please feel free to call me! 207-938-3595
If this comes out it is a picture of an Enfield opened up to take the .366DGW cartridge whi based on the .416 Rigby case, it is on page 201 of the tenth edition of Cartridges of The World if you are intrested.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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deant
.224 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 47
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #40403 - 02/11/05 10:13 AM

sir
where do you get the coil spring? do you have a size or part #. I havent done this to mine yet but have it on my list. Do you convert yours to cock on open? If you do do you buy the kit or make your own parts?
Dean

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: deant]
      #40568 - 04/11/05 11:09 AM


Sorry about that, I left a few things out. The coil spring for the ejector is sort of a trial and error deal. once you have cut the notches for it you can try different rate springs until you get the results you want but make sure you avoid coil bind. Once you have found the right tension solder the spring in place, clean up the flux and excess solder and you are done. I usually use a rather heavy spring here, one thet gives me about the same tension as a 98 Mauser ejector or a bit more for the big stuff like the 416 Rigby and such.
There is nothing wrong with cock on closing but I like cock on opening so I convert the Enfields to this. Dayton Traster has a good cock on opening kit which comes with a new cocking piece, fast lock time spring and clear directions and a template for cutting the camming surface of the bolt. I have in the past used their trigger but not since I had one where the sear was not properly hardened and it rounded off to the point where the rifle would at times fire when the safety war taken off so a word to the wise here!!!! Timney has a good trigger that will work with the Dayton cock on opening conversion so that is the way I would go. If you want to do your own cock on opening conversion you can but for reliable ignition you must go to a fast lock time main spring in the 24 pound range. I hope I have been of some help with your questions.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Ndumo
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Reged: 21/12/03
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Loc: Namibia
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #42209 - 23/11/05 07:29 AM

A friend of mine also have a .505 on a P14 action. He had some feeding problems and sometimes the cartridges just popped out when he opened the bolt. Seemed to be fixed now.
He hunted buffalo with me, and I was not impressed with the functionality of the action. I do not know who the gunsmith was that modified it, as I suspect that it was his fault, and not the action's.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

Edited by Ndumo (23/11/05 07:32 AM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Ndumo]
      #42210 - 23/11/05 07:36 AM


Ndumo

Nothing wrong with P14 actions IF done correctly
so I agree with your statement that I suspect that it
was his (gunsmith's) fault, and not the action's.

I have seen numerous guns (big bores) made on P14's
and they are really good guns if done well.

500 Nitro

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: Actions for the big stuff [Re: Judson]
      #42221 - 23/11/05 01:01 PM

go for it....your double rifle project was an excellent read.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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