Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Some food for thought, maybe?

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Some food for thought, maybe?
      #39620 - 24/10/05 02:23 AM

I have an understanding of the extreme time and energy that is required to regulate a double. I just had a weird thought the other night and wondered what if. I figured someone on here might know the answer.

What happens when a double using rifling of the same twist rate in both barrels is built, but with opposing directions of twist? Would that have any bearing on the bullets placement in the real world. (I'm sure under perfect circumstances they would fall into the same hole irregardless of the turn of twist, but I've also found that this world is far from perfect, and usually gives vastly different results than perfect "predictions".)

It is a rather stupid question, I guess, but for some reason I am being eaten by the what if factor. Maybe it is from too much coffee and nicotine, but hopefully someone more intelligent than me has an answer and can ease the nagging from a pretty much useless question.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: iwantadouble]
      #39623 - 24/10/05 04:03 AM

For whatever it's worth, if you were to mess with rifling direction -- you'd want the gun to press into the shooter or roll away from the shooter (I'll take the former) the same way for each barrel.

A double rifle's two guns stuck together in the same stock after all, you want them to behave as much the same as possible.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: iwantadouble]
      #39630 - 24/10/05 05:16 AM


iwantadouble,

never a stupid question.

FI, there is a double rifle out there with the twist
of the rifling opposite in each barrel.

The gun does shoot.

500 Nitro


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MauserRifle
.300 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39645 - 24/10/05 07:57 AM

500Nitro

iwantadoublealso!!!!!

All jokes aside, who makes that double and is there any difference in the acuracy?

What about regulation, how is that affected?



--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: MauserRifle]
      #39649 - 24/10/05 08:20 AM


Who makes that double and is there any difference in the acuracy?

What about regulation, how is that affected?


I haven't a clue and can't remember but can remeber it was pointed out
to me a long time ago.

As I said, the gun shot.

I think people in general, especially new people on the scene look into these
things too much and forget that the English knew what they were doing when
they made guns and that reputation was everything in the old days.

In addition, people seem to want to make doubles into something they
were never intended to be - high velocity tac holers and most / the majority
of people can't shoot a double offhand to it's potential anyway.

Anyway, just my HO.

500 Nitro



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MauserRifle
.300 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39650 - 24/10/05 08:54 AM

500Nitro

I believe you are 100% correct that most people want to make their DR a tack driver and in all reality cannot shoot it offhand to it's potential. But IMO this holds true to most rifles, be they be a bolt or DR, especially in the magnum calibers.

I was mainly curious as to the regulation of the barrels, having one barrel spinning the bullet one way and the other barrel spinning the bullet the other way. I read a post either here or on AR by Ray A. I believe, that DR's were regulated by shooting the right barrel first, then the left? I was curious if the spinning of the bullets in different directions had ny affect on how the rifle was regulated? Just curious as I have never heard of a DR set up that way.



--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39651 - 24/10/05 10:16 AM

My definition of accuracy is probably considerably less than most others. I would consider a double that shoots with out the barrels interesecting at 100 yards into a 5" group as a tack driver. If its good enough to stick meat on the dinner plate, its accurate enough. (Not that I would hold a bolt to the same requirements of accuracy; that I deem 2.5" or less group of 10 rounds at the same distance.) I believe I heard somewhere that Jeffery held an opinion of accuracy as being 3 inches. H&H at 3 or 4 inches, along with most of the other big English makers. (All for doubles, not bolts, obviously.)

That all being said, I am a horrible shot. This shows how bad I really am. (300 Yards, M70, .30-06, 4X Old generic scope, freehand, one flyer down and to the right just off paper about 1/4".) Basically, my point is that more than likely, with a proper load in any given double, its going to shoot better than I am capable of. The direction of twist question wasn't meant to confuse it with a bench rest .20-something ultra fast throat erroding annoyance rifle level of accuracy. Just to squeeze the accuracy of the quality double down by maybe a .25" tighter. And obviously, it plays a role if someone has seen one with opposing twists that shot great for a doubles level of accuracy (along with proper regulation). Thank you for answering a nagging question.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: iwantadouble]
      #39654 - 24/10/05 10:27 AM


The problem is most people don't seem to think
that 3" at 100 yards is acceptable accuracy out of a double.
(and I would always try to get better than this but I just
can't see that far so shoot them at 50 yards.

However I don't have the problem on animals.

I don't consider a 5" group at100 yards a tack driver
- in fact to me this would be unacceptable.

FYI, I used to be an awful shot, especially off hand
but military training and PRACTICE at the range and
in the field made me a much better shot + better at
handling firearms.

500 Nitro


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39658 - 24/10/05 11:43 AM

Given the "correct" animal that a large bore double is used on (elephant, buffalo, ect.) that has a kill zone of more than 5", I would. Aside from the fact that I will never go to Africa to hunt (partially due to funds required, mainly due to the lack of desire), I'd say 5" at a range that is probably far beyond what most people would/should be shooting these beasts from would be accurate enough for me. That being said, I do adhere to the philosophy of, "If you aren't 100% of where the shot is going to land, refrain!" theory. (Paper I don't count, because there is no chance of it running off wounded or suffering needlessly.)

The major problem with my shooting is probably the fact that I drink 5 or more pots of coffee a day, and smoke 2 or more packs of cigarettes (technically cigars, but they are filtered, so call them cigarettes) a day. I simply shake too much to be a really accurate shot on long distances. The rate I go through ammo eliminates the lack of practice part. (Although I'm sure I've got a bad habit here and there in my shooting form that should be cured.) And with my physical problems (severe back injury) military isn't an option for me.

Then again, I am not hunting (aside from birds), and doing all my shooting for entertainment and pain relief. I guess it makes me an odd fixture on a forum thats main focus is hunting, but the people are knowledgable, helpful, curtious, and the firearms under discussion are just plain neat! (Please dont beat me up over this too much )

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: iwantadouble]
      #39669 - 24/10/05 01:35 PM

iwantadouble

"I guess it makes me an odd fixture on a forum"

I knew their was something odd about you and now
it's all explained.

500 Nitro


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Some food for thought, maybe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39732 - 25/10/05 08:34 AM

Just one of the many odd things about me. Just my personal preferance. I have nothing against hunting at all, in fact I see hunting as the best conservation of wildlife there is. Just because it is something that I don't do myself anymore doesn't mean I don't think others should stop it. As the old saying goes, if it floats your boat...

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mhb
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
Loc: S.E. Arizona
Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: iwantadouble]
      #39788 - 26/10/05 02:40 AM

Getting back to the original posting, in answer to the question asked (would it be worthwhile to rifle the barrels in opposite directions for a double rifle), and speaking as a barrel maker and rifle smith:
If I were going to make a pair of barrels to furnish to Searcy, say, to have him make-up a DR for me (because I sure don't want to), I'd make the rifling of each barrel in opposite directions (because I can).
Do I think this would make the rifle shoot more accurately, or easier to regulate? No. But it appeals to my sense of symmetry, and a double rifle should be nothing if not symmetrical.
The real reason why DR barrels must be set to converge is, as I hinted, based in their geometry as an assembly in the rifle: the support given to the barrels (and the rifle as a unit) is not in-line with either bore. If the support to the barrel were truly in-line with the bore, the resulting recoil vector would also be in-line - straight to the rear. Since hunting rifles are built to be shot by human beings from the shoulder, the line of the bore nearly always lies above the midline of the rifle stock and its placement against the shoulder; the resulting recoil vector is upward and to the right (for a right-handed shooter - to the left for a southpaw). In a DR, additional force vectors are introduced by the barrels' positions off the centerline of the assembly, right for the right barrel and left for the left tube (in a superposed DR or shotgun, the barrels lie nearly on the vertical centerline, but at different distances from the center of rotation against the support, so the force vectors are more vertical, but not equal - the regulation problem is much the same, but the convergence/divergence problem with POA is primarily in the vertical plane).
In regulating the barrel pair to place shots from each barrel close together at some specific distance, the convergence of the barrels must be established by firing the assembled rifle with the appropriate ammunition at the desired range, and correcting the barrel pair's assembly until the desired result is achieved (and perfect coincidence is not necessary or realistically attainable). The procedures are well established, and obviously well enough understood by the experienced maker to achieve results which leave little to be desired in a practical sense. This process, while expensive and time-consuming, has never yet been, and is unlikely to be, superseded by any theoretically-based algorithm permitting the maker to assemble barrels (and rifles) which always shoot perfectly without further adjustment: there are too many variables in the rifle, ammunition and shooter to permit it - rifles are dynamic devices. Rules-of-thumb do work well enough to enable the maker to save some time by using a pre-determined amount of convergence in assembling the barrel pair before shooting begins.
As to the effect of rifling direction, per-se: barrels with right-hand pitch cause the bullet to drift to the right, and the barrel to counter-rotate to the left; the opposite being the case for left-hand pitch barrels. So, in a theoretical sense, if I were assembling opposite-pitch barrels in a side-by-side DR, I'd place the right-pitch barrel on the right (as a counter to the recoil force vectors), and the left-pitch barrel on the left. And remember that, if the barrels are set to cause shots to converge at some pre-set distance, they will, in theory. continue to cross at longer ranges - the drift will help compensate for this (in theory, and in the above case for opposite-pitch barrels). In reality, though, the forces introduced are so slight as to be, probably, insignificant, so far as making any real difference in the regulation process, and, as I said, there is nothing to be gained in accuracy.
I hope this will help clarify the point. But I doubt it. :->
mhb - Mike


--------------------
Sancho! My armor!

Edited by mhb (26/10/05 06:50 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: mhb]
      #39793 - 26/10/05 03:41 AM

I see your point in regards to bullet drift and recoil torquing of the rifle.
: While I know little of double rifles and regulation, I do know that bullet drift form rifling direction takes place at longer ranges than any game is shot.
: I wonder if the different recoil torque of each barrel of a double set up as described, would be 'confusing' or would it be felt at all?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mhb
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
Loc: S.E. Arizona
For Daryl S: [Re: DarylS]
      #39799 - 26/10/05 04:35 AM

I don't believe the shooter would ever know the difference. In shooting rifles, the torque effect is hardly discernable: in some handguns, which can be relatively light in relation to the weight of the projectile and velocity level, it may be noticeable.
mhb - Mike

--------------------
Sancho! My armor!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: mhb]
      #39825 - 26/10/05 04:32 PM

In reply to:

I hope this will help clarify the point. But I doubt it.




Don't doubt it. It made perfect sense. And that being said, I would definately go with opposing twists for the symetry factor, if nothing else. I had recently looked down the bores of a friend's latest purchase of a Jeffery double, and noticed the same direction of twist in them. It struck me as odd how the case color'ing and the engraving were as close to mirrored images on each side of the action as possible, but the bores weren't mirrored. I guess its the first time I ever paid any attention to the rifling itself in a double, and probably due to the fact that the opposing twist question was pounding away in my head. Maybe I just think too much for my own good at times, instead of accepting what is as being what is, and not what if. Thanks again for the invaluble piece of experience.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: iwantadouble]
      #40166 - 31/10/05 08:43 AM

iwantadouble , there are no sutpid questions where firearms are concerened, especially double rifles! I don't think you could think of anything that has not been tried to make double rifles esier to build, and make shoot properly. That being said, the opposing twist theory has been tested many times, by many makers, without any thing being gained. It simply doesn't matter!

The group you posted would gender a lot of load testing in my digs. I'm sure your rifle was regulated far more tightly than that, so the load you are useing is not right, by some distance. If it satisfies you, however, it is your rifle. Since you are not hunting with this rifle nothing is lost if paper is punched in a wide group, as paper doesn't suffer! Addtionally, you will not get a horn up the butt if you fail to stop something that wants to hurt you!

Your comment about the kill zone being much larger on an elephant, or Buffalo, than the group you posted is a fair statement! The actual kill zone on almost any animal is larger than that group, however the stopping zone is much smaller than that group in many cases! your group statement could be hazardous to a young guy who may take your meaning to be that that group is good enough to hunt those animals. It is NOT! Though all your shots may be in the kill zone, if none are in the stop zone in a close encounter, it may result in a very flat, and tattered hunter, before the kill zone shots take effect!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #40218 - 31/10/05 02:17 PM

iwantadouble:
Seems Mac is being a little harsh here. If your pictured group is OFFHAND at 300 YARDS, and those squares are inches, then its probably not too bad. Further, a 5-inch group OFFHAND at 100 yards is quite OK too IMHO, especially with open express sights as for most doubles. Remember, a 5-inch group means that NO shots are more than 2 1/2 inches from the point of aim, and in fact only the flyers are 2 1/2 inches away, most of the group will be closer. At 100 yards with open sights, that is perfectly acceptable accuracy, and probably as good as any of the posters here could regularly achieve anyway.

Of course, over sandbags at the bench is a different matter, and we might even expect a little better than 3 or 4 inches at 100 yards, but the reality is that open express sights and the human eye will probably not achieve much better than this, even in perfect conditions.

There's a lot of nonsense written about accuracy, especially in regard to double rifles, but they are not target arms so most of it is just crap. The term "hunting accuracy" was coined for a reason. Doubles are hunting rifles. Simple stuff really!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #40221 - 31/10/05 02:25 PM

In reply to:

The group you posted would gender a lot of load testing in my digs. I'm sure your rifle was regulated far more tightly than that, so the load you are useing is not right, by some distance. If it satisfies you, however, it is your rifle. Since you are not hunting with this rifle nothing is lost if paper is punched in a wide group, as paper doesn't suffer! Addtionally, you will not get a horn up the butt if you fail to stop something that wants to hurt you!




It was out of a .30-06 Winchester Model 70. No regulation, no issue with accuracy (it goes much tighter off a bench), just my shakey hands at 300 yards shooting freehanded. (Which is a distance I deem much too far to take ANY game animal if I am going to shoot it.)

About the only animal I would use that rifle on (even if I were in a hunting mood) would be the vicious North American Prarie Dog. It might be a tough one, though, if pulling in close charge stopping shots. I've heard horror stories about their sharp squarish shaped fangs lacerating limbs of other horrible shots like myself. And those sharp claws they possess instill fear in even the most hearty of African Elephant.

(Sorry, I've been dipping into the Bacardi tonight. Back to my original reason for response, it was just to show my own horrible accuracy, not the rifle, the load or anything else.)

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: Marrakai]
      #40225 - 31/10/05 02:42 PM

Yes, they are inch spaced grids, it was shot at a shooting station at my local range on the 300 yard stand, taken from a standing postition, with rifle unrested. I didn't take a laser range finder and mark off, but I'm willing to guess that if it wasn't dead on at 300 yards, it would be 299 or 301. Close enough to call 300, in my opinon, anyway. And that was a long walk to take after each shot and verify. (The range was slightly beyond the clarity and magnification of the scope.)

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Physics, geometry, rifling direction, etc. [Re: iwantadouble]
      #40229 - 31/10/05 02:53 PM

I like an accurate gun as much as the next guy, but the fact is that if you double rifle can hit a basketball at 25 yards, it is just fine for hunting buffalo and elephant.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 104 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4031

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved