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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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LRF
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Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles
      #390648 - 22/03/25 11:38 PM

I am looking for input and suggestions, hopefully, based on actual experience with Red Dot type sights. I am currently working on a rifle project which will be a 375 caliber rifle and I want to use a barrel mounted Red Dot type sight. It will be mounted in the normal area that one would expect the rear open sights to be. The rifle action will not be drilled and tapped and I do not intend to have a front sight either. I currently use Red Dots on our 12 ga Turkey guns and they work fine and can handle the recoil well. Consideration of heavy recoil from large rifle calibers is a concern. Currently I am considering the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint Pro, and AimPoint ARCO C2. But am not locked in at all and that is why the inquiry here. I know there is a lot of knowledge here and I hope you can share.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: LRF]
      #390650 - 23/03/25 12:24 AM

I have a Trijicon RMR.

The circle dot has turned into a star because of astigmatism.

But I wouldn't buy one again, as the battery can only be changed underneath. You have to remove the sight to change the battery. Bad design.

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9.3x57
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: LRF]
      #390653 - 23/03/25 01:26 AM

Quote:

I am looking for input and suggestions, hopefully, based on actual experience with Red Dot type sights. I am currently working on a rifle project which will be a 375 caliber rifle and I want to use a barrel mounted Red Dot type sight. It will be mounted in the normal area that one would expect the rear open sights to be. The rifle action will not be drilled and tapped and I do not intend to have a front sight either. I currently use Red Dots on our 12 ga Turkey guns and they work fine and can handle the recoil well. Consideration of heavy recoil from large rifle calibers is a concern. Currently I am considering the Trijicon RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint Pro, and AimPoint ARCO C2. But am not locked in at all and that is why the inquiry here. I know there is a lot of knowledge here and I hope you can share.



Curious:
What's the game the gun is intended for? Short barrel/long, general layout?
I have no experience w/ a RDS on bolt gun. Just on AR's (Aimpoint Pros and Vortex model escapes me).


--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (23/03/25 01:59 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #390654 - 23/03/25 03:12 AM

I have an old Tasco red dot in a .22 PCP pistol. It (3moa dot) is fine for shooting targets out to 30 yards. I had it mounted on my 10/22 Ruger and didn't like it, preferring a scope.
I bought another lower priced red dot newer and shorter for another PCP pistol, tried it once, took it off and it sits in a box somewhere.
I thought I'd try a 2 MOA red dot sight, but just never got around to it.
I have to wear my glasses due to my astigmatism, or I just see a slanted line of red in them.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #390659 - 23/03/25 07:32 AM

After buffalo hunting with my open sighted Mauser 404J back in '78 and then wanting to develop loads using lighter jacketed and cast bullets, I fitted a red dot sight on the Mauser. Back then the only such sight available was the Single Point Occluded Eye Gunsight (OEGS). This type of sight is long obsolete but I did hunt deer and feral goats with it.
The red dot sights today do not have some of the issues associated with the occluded eye design aspect but in other respects use in the field is similar.

The RD sight is quick to obtain the target and good for running shots on game. They seem to be reasonably ruggedized and reliable.

Issue I had with my sight and others report similar with modern RD sights is size of the dot for work on targets and lack of magnification not just for open country shooting but also to aid threading shots through scrub, trees etc. I ultimately replaced my sight with a 2x EER Leupold scope which still allows for fast target acquisition and also for more precise shooting in scrub and forest conditions. Can use such a scope with both eyes open or one shut when doing paper target work.

I have used a modern red dot sight on the range when the owner was struggling to shoot the rifle in. Got it shot in for him easy enough and it seemed quite good to use but we were only at 50m so lack of magnification wasn't an issue. I imagine for close range stuff the RD sight would be okay but for 375 calibre rifle I would think longer range shooting would require a more precision sighting arrangement?

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DarylS
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: eagle27]
      #390660 - 23/03/25 08:13 AM

Well, I suppose if the bullet strikes in the middle of the dot, similar in respect to a bead front sight, should be OK.
I remember being disgusted with it on the Ruger, though I WAS shooting at 100 meters & was failing to shoot to the characteristics of the rifle.
It is quite capable of shooting sub 1", but I couldn't do it with that sight, couldn't even get closer than 4".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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LRF
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #390664 - 23/03/25 09:43 AM

Thanks John for your input n the RMR. I did look at a RMR at a local store and thought taking the sight off and on may be ok for a handgun with their usual very limited range (normally) but in a rifle app not so sure it won't require another round of sighting in at the range.

The purpose of the rifle is a carry gun as a back up or protection rifle, so it would come into play when needed and probably at ranges of 100 or less where open sights would typically be useful in the past.

And to eagle27's last sentence of his comment, I think the RD would have some distinct advantages over the old open sight leaf's, which block viewing of half the target when using then. The other option.

Daryls, I think if I go this way practice will be in order as it will be quite a change in the old standard ways.

My choice on this subject is not immediate as the project is just getting rolling so keep the comments coming, I appreciate the input.

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DarylS
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: LRF]
      #390665 - 23/03/25 10:10 AM

For a back-up rifle, one might want to practice turning it on in a panic situation - practice over and over, from mounted (however) to dismounting, shouldering and turning it on to where the act of turning it on becomes instinctive action while mounting to the shoulder, prior-to or afterwards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hunter4752001
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #390667 - 23/03/25 01:49 PM

The power consumption on modern red dots is minimal. Just turn it on at the start of the day and turn it off when you get back to the lodge/home/camp. The battery will normally last a few years but I recommend a fresh battery every year. Do it on a specific date so you don't forget.

Note: some red dot sights (like the Burris FF) have an auto-off feature after a set number of hours. If this is the case with your particular sight, then turn off and turn on a couple of times during the day to keep it "awake".

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: LRF]
      #390671 - 23/03/25 02:45 PM

LRF,
Lhave a look at some of the threads I started on red dot sights. I narrowed down some good sights or at least ideas.

I really prefer a larger dot in theory. A smaller dot is better for accurate rifle shooting. But for me, a small dog is too small for quick fast sudden close shooting.

One solution for this is a smaller dot inside a lit circle. A 10 or 12 MOA circle. A 2 MOA dot in the centre. At 25 yards that 10 MOA circle is 2.5 inches. 5 inches at 50 yards, 10 inches at 100 yards. A 10 inch circle is probably the size of a broadside chest kill area of larger medium game. Allowing quick shooting, especially close in. Thatb2 MOA dot allows more precise aiming. Also a natural centreing of that larger circle.

I don't know why red dot makers don't use the inverted V dot more. The whole triangle can be larger for quicker shooting, The point of the triangle allows a precise aiming point. Allegedly the triangle is better for astigmatic eyesight.

Off topic to your needs. Instead a comment on FB about use of red dots vs scopes on double rifles which made a lot of sense. Astigmatism, no magnification, for red dots, make them inferior to using a variable scope with an illuminated reticle where the lowest magnification is 1x. Scopes may other a greater range of good illuminated reticles as well. Not just a simple red dot. A lightweight 1-4x scope with illuminated reticle makes a lot more sense than a red dot sight.

A red dot sight that works for the person, makes a lot of sense as a replacement on or for a rear express open sight. A thread is on the forums about grooving the rear express sights of a double rifle to affix a red dot sight. This might be done by a double rifle shooter to continue using the rifle as eyesight lessens. One day I might have removed, the vintage express sights of my favourite vintage DRs. A new express sight added, modified to allow a suitable Red dot sight to be fitted to it. The original express sights kept to allow a return to originality if desired by a future owner. Allowing the current owner to continue using the rifle.

LRF, that last paragraph is very similar to your bolt action plans.

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John aka NitroX

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93x64mm
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #390675 - 23/03/25 09:46 PM

I have only 2 red dot systems - both I would recommend wholeheartedly!

First is on my CZ550 in 404J
Has a AHR QD mount - no issues with reloading or POI change under recoil!
https://americanhuntingrifles.com/product-category/mounts/
https://cmore.com/Category/STS2

Second on my Merkel 140AE in 450/400
Its rear scope block was milled to take a 15mm? QD mount for the Docter/Zeiss footprint. The Kahles Helia Red Dot shares the same footprint - this comes from Kahles themselves which married up perfectly. It has no issues being snapped on & off, again no issues with feeding or recoil & POI change.
https://www.optics-trade.eu/au/recknagel...with-lever.html
https://www.kahles.at/en/hunt/red-dot/helia-rd

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LRF
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390676 - 23/03/25 11:10 PM

Thank you John and 93x64mm for your very valuable input. All will be considered.

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93x64mm
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390682 - 24/03/25 07:02 AM

Quote:

I have only 2 red dot systems - both I would recommend wholeheartedly!

First is on my CZ550 in 404J
Has a AHR QD mount - no issues with reloading or POI change under recoil!
https://americanhuntingrifles.com/product-category/mounts/
https://cmore.com/Category/STS2

Second on my Merkel 140AE in 450/400
Its rear scope block was milled to take a 15mm? QD mount for the Docter/Zeiss footprint. The Kahles Helia Red Dot shares the same footprint - this comes from Kahles themselves which married up perfectly. It has no issues being snapped on & off, again no issues with feeding or recoil & POI change.
https://www.optics-trade.eu/au/recknagel...with-lever.html
https://www.kahles.at/en/hunt/red-dot/helia-rd



Sorry I missed this earlier.
I should add in here that the C-More's battery gets changed from a draw system on the side of the unit, as for the Kahles, its gets changed from the top so you never have to resight either again after a battery change!

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390683 - 24/03/25 07:38 AM


One of the things to remember is that the distance from the base of the sight to the position of the red dot itself can vary dramatically from one brand of sight to another. The Burris FF4 for instance has a dot that is 8 mm lower than the Leica Tempus, the Leica being designed for mounting on the receiver or bridge of a modern bolt action rifle with no iron sights and a flat comb. On a rifle with drop in the comb designed for open sight use having a Leica is a distinct disadvantage compared to the Burris FF4. If your rifle has drop in the comb you need to get the red dot down as low as possible and as close to the line of the open sights. This is especially important the more powerful and greater the recoil, otherwise if you have to start lifting your head of the stock to see through the red dot then you will start getting smacked in the face. It also will not be as quick to get on target.

On my 9.3 double I machined a pocket in the rib and made a custom base that fits in the pocket to allow a Burris FF4 to be mounted 0.1 mm above the rib, so it's as low as is possible and the dot is on the same plane as the open sight line and it works perfectly. You don't need to lift your head one bit
and the dot is straight on target, very comfortable to shoot.

Matt.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #390691 - 24/03/25 06:02 PM

If the Rd dot is mounted fairly far forward on a bolt actions rear sights or base, what does this mean for a red dot? Or different types of red dot? Further away, more diffult to see?

I wondered about this reading in the opening query. Maybe experienced and regular red dot users can comment? Might make a difference for LRF's decision.

Maybe I'm over thinking, using a red dot on a handgun, at full arms length, the sight is reasonably far away. But not as far away as a bolt actions rear sight base.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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coll416
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #390692 - 24/03/25 08:53 PM

Hey fellas,
I do not profess to be a red dot expert however I have considerable experience using red dot sights on medium & large bore rifles.
My favourite system is the Aimpoint 34L which is a larger set up like a light scope. I have used this on many running pigs with my 9.3x62 where it is incredibly instinctive in this situation. I have shot 1.0" groups using SSAA targets where I can use the target to centralise the 2.0 MOA dot. I found the lack of movement amplification due to no magnification very calming & I love watching the dust fly on impact with the two eyes open process. Bigger game is a piece of cake. A commitment to dry firing certainly helped me develop the necessary skills pretty quickly. I also have considerable open sights practice which is similar. I swap out this system with a traditional scope if longer shots are the norm in open country.
I intended to use this Aimpoint on my .416 Taylor but now favour an Aimpoint Micro H2 so that I can keep the rifle weight to about 8.5lbs, no trouble getting all bullets to touch at 50m using the same technique described above. Only a couple of easy shots on game so far but I think it works fine.(Similar performance to my Rechnagel sights). The H2 is a little less instinctive compared to the the 34L however better than the alternative sighting arrangements.
Recently I used a cheaper Crown red dot 3MOA to cull plenty of donkeys & brumbies on my cheap Remington M78 .308W, shots out to 200m not a problem. Running shots were a dream although occasional back up shots were needed.

Hope this helps!

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93x64mm
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #390693 - 24/03/25 09:00 PM

The QD mount is fitted on the front receiver ring, as with the Brno ZKK or CZ550 rails machined into the receiver.
Check the link below John, hopefully it'll make more sense
https://americanhuntingrifles.com/product/leupold-delta-point-fixed-mount-for-cz-550-brno-zkk/

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LRF
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390694 - 24/03/25 10:20 PM

Thanks, I will research the numerous product suggestions offered above.
Matt, your experience offers validation to some of my thoughts on the actual engineering of how I plan to design the stock drop of the comb. Consideration that always come into play when planning a custom rifle.
John, these RD sights are advertised as infinite eye relief and my testing so far has shown that whether they are close or at arms length acquisition of the dot seems to be the same. However having said that I don't think I will be able to truly know until I take the plunge and mount one on my project.
The Aimpoint 34L system will not be an option as it appears to require more than a single point of mounting to typical express rear sight dovetail. At least that is the current design.

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DoubleD
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: LRF]
      #390695 - 24/03/25 10:59 PM

Picture this...it 1902. You are at the local shooting range and some guy shows up with a telescope attached to the top of his rifle.

You just shake your head. It's a passing fad, it will never work....

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DD, Ret.

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85lc
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: DoubleD]
      #390697 - 25/03/25 02:29 AM

Quote:

Picture this...it 1902. You are at the local shooting range and some guy shows up with a telescope attached to the top of his rifle.

You just shake your head. It's a passing fad, it will never work....



DD, Well said. However, to me, a red dot looks out of place on a nice, vintage rifle.

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RB

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DarylS
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #390698 - 25/03/25 03:47 AM

As-does a scope.imho

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #390700 - 25/03/25 07:10 AM

I like a rifle just with open sights for practical carry and aesthetics reasons but for many of us eyesight dictates the need for some other sighting arrangement. Being shortsighted I need glasses for clarity of the area forward of front sights and no glasses for clarity of the open sights. The EER scope I have on my 404 now and the red dot sight I had previously both solved the eye sight issue.

As to aesthetics, probably because I'm used to scopes, a scope or scope type red dot sight as the Single Point sight was, look okay to me on a rifle even when mounted in the forward or so called scout position. The modern red dot sight with some form of a raised screen do look out of place on bolt guns and more so on doubles. However that is just my own opinion, others will see it differently and practically.

The beauty in some ways of the mounting system I installed on my Mauser 404, a U profile Weaver bridge mounted from the front receiver ring to the rear of the safari sight is that the open sights are still perfectly useable with scope removed and a red dot sight with Weaver or Picatinny QD mounting can be swapped over in place of the EER scope i.e. I have 3 sighting options readily available in the field. My original Single Point red dot was an 1" tube size using the same Weaver rings I now have the Leupold 2x scope in.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: coll416]
      #390701 - 25/03/25 07:39 AM

I also run a 34L on my 338 WM and its by far the best red dot to look through and use, the only downside is it makes loading slightly more difficult than with a receiver mounted sight. The view however is unmatched and the outside of the ring is barely noticeable.

Matt.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #390702 - 25/03/25 07:48 AM

Mounting them forward makes no difference, they still work perfectly. For me mounting a red dot on the receiver of my CZ550 in 505 or 416 positions the sight way to high as both stocks are setup for open sights, therefore mounting a red dot where the rear sight base sits positions the dot at the correct height using a Burris FF4. I have designed a rear sight base that allows a FF4 to be mounted with a QD mount but still has a single standing leaf. A quick flick of a lever removes the red dot and the open sights can be used. I have 3D printed one in plastic and tried it and the position of the dot is perfect for the stock and very easy to use. Now I just have to make one in steel if I can ever get onto my own machines rather than customers jobs lol.

Matt.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Red Dot Sights for Big Bore Rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #390703 - 25/03/25 07:51 AM

It depends how they are mounted to a large degree. On my 9.3 double because of how low the sight sits and the Burris FF4 has a very pleasing side on profile the combination looks really good. Basically it looks factory. If I can one day work out how to easily post pics I will put some up.

Matt.

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