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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2281
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54612 - 12/04/06 04:18 AM

Judson,

I have never really considered adding a double to my collection as they are well beyond the means of a government worker two years out of retirement.

Now after reading this tread, I do see a nice retirement project ahead and way to acquire a double.

Currently I am living in South Africa. Guns are available here.

I am going to order Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions by Ellis Brown.

While I am waiting for the book to come give me some idea what I need to look for in the way of a shotgun?

You may have to refresh my memory about features because my only real experience with doubles was back in school 20 years ago, and most of that was Shotguns. I have worked on a few Double shotguns over the years. Most of my work has been with bolt guns and Single shots.

I have already decide on a caliber. .375 Flanged Magnum NE. My choice is based reason and logic. The reason, I have brass dies, a reamer and no gun, so it's only logical that build in that caliber.







--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #54627 - 12/04/06 09:17 AM

If you want to use a shotgun action you want to keep the pressures under 44,000 PSI for most useable actions, their are a few which will take higher pressures but even here you want a max load under 51,000 PSI NOT C.U.P.!! Check the pressures on the .375 flanged I am not sure where it falls.
The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel. Most actions will have the proof pressure marked on them some where and with basic math you will be able to figure if your cartridge falls within this pressure range. Also you want small diameter firing pins, lots of the old guns, and cheep guns have firing pin diameters that are far too large and even if the proof range is right bushing firing pins for a center fire rifle cartridge is a real pain. Good luck, have fun and be safe, and yes Brown's book is well worth the money.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2281
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54643 - 12/04/06 03:30 PM

Judson, please explain chopper lumps.

Bouble under lugs and Greener Cross bolt I understand.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #54645 - 12/04/06 04:04 PM

DoubleD look here. It's in alphabetical order.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#Calibre

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2281
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: AkMike]
      #54662 - 13/04/06 01:06 AM

Thanks Mike that one got added to my Favorites!!

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #54757 - 14/04/06 05:48 AM

INCORRECT LOAD DATA ABOVE

Despite my self-imposed absence from this site, I feel obligated to post a warning here before someone gets hurt. Judson talks about using 118 grains of IMR-4831, beneath a 500 grain bullet, for a blue pill, in his .450 #2 NE and quotes that load as the maximum load from Art Alphin's "Any Shot You Want". That is the maximum load shown for Hodgdon's H-4831 NOT IMR-4831. The maximum load for IMR-4831, as shown on page 550 of Art's book is 110.0 grains , and with a 465 grain bullet as Judson points out.

I have absolutely no idea what the pressure excursion might be with a load which is 8 grains over maximum, and pushing a 35 grain heavier bullet. No one can know that without a pressure gun. An honest mistake on Judson's part, put potentially very dangerous. PLEASE TAKE HEED !!!


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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54761 - 14/04/06 06:41 AM

I might be missing something but I don't see where he posted that. In fact the only thing I can find even close talks about the load he was using to self proof the gun since it was homemade. Thus it is over on purpose.

Or am I missing something or some post?

Bill


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54766 - 14/04/06 08:14 AM

Thank you for your concern!!!! The proof load I was using was 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet and this was a PROOF LOAD and should never be fired in a gun one is holding on to. I was stressing the gun to the point where I would feel safe firing it with a sane load which is around 100 grains of IMR 4831 with a 480 grain bullet. If any of you thought I was recomending the proof load as a standard load you are dead wrong and I am very sorry for any misunderstanding. With a proof load you are trying to blow up your gun and that load should never be used other then for proof testing. Thank you again for bringing up this vital point of safety!!!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54769 - 14/04/06 08:52 AM

Judson,

What you said, and I quote, is "I used 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet as a blue pill. 118 grains of this powder is the A Square max load for a 465 grain slug".

That very clearly says that Art Alphin's book lists 118 grains of IMR-4831 as a max load. That is not the case. He lists 118.6 grains as the max load with H-4831, which, as we all know, is a completely different powder. My great concern is that someone will see your post and try that load as a regular load in a hand-held rifle, with possibly disastrous results.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4662
Loc: Nevada
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54772 - 14/04/06 09:04 AM

Might be time to look back and possibly edit a post there someone...



Ron-
How's your DR project coming along?
Got any photos?
I'd like to see what you've been up to with it.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54778 - 14/04/06 09:48 AM

I went back and changed that powder to the H 4831, I was never recomending that load for other then a proof load but your point about a person using that load with the IMR powder and a 465 grain slug is a good one and the results might not be good. For that matter most of the loads listed in that book are rather warm since the standard load for the .450#2 is around 100 grains of either IMR or H 4831 with a 480 grain bullet depenging on your rifle. The IMR powder is a bit faster and will work better in shorter barreled rifles.
Another powder that workes very well in these sive cartridges is RL 15. 88 grains of this stuff will give about the same velosity with a 480 grain bullet as 100 grains of the IMR 4831, yes I mean IMR 4831. However the RL 15 seems to give even lower pressures. One point with ALL these powders you must use some sort of a filler or you can get hang fires. Foam is what I like best as it does not have to be weighed and is easy to use and stays where it is meant to.
Thank you again for bringing up your very well made point and this just goes to show that we should all check the loading books before using a load found in print some other place! If any of you want loading info on this cartridge see if you can get N E 450 No2 to throw in his two cents worth, he has lots of experiance with this cartridge and has been a big help to me. Oh bye the way if I have made that mistake on other pages then page six please let me know where and I will change it, thanks again for pointing it out to me!


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (14/04/06 09:56 AM)


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Ron_Vella
.333 member


Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54785 - 14/04/06 11:28 AM

Judson,
Thanks for being a gentleman, for accepting constructive criticism, and for fixing the problem. I debated for a week about whether to post about this, fearing that things might degenerate into the usual pi$$ing match. My conscience wouldn't allow me to just ignore the error and then hear later of someone losing a hand or worse. I wasn't aware that you could still edit a post, this long after the fact.

Tinker,
Look for a photo display on the double gun BBS in the very near future.

Best to all!


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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54806 - 14/04/06 02:05 PM

Judson
Glad I could help.
When you get your 450 No2 finally done and sighted in I would like you to try Hornady 350 grain bullets with what ever load you are using for the 480 grainers, and also try 81 grains of IMR 3031 with the 350's. Both with filler of course.
They shoot the same place as the 480/500 grain bullets in my No2.
My standard load, the one I use in Africa is 88 grains of RL 15 with the 450 Woodleigh Softs and Solids and the 500 gr Swift A Frame. I also used some 450 North Fork cup points and flat point solids with 89 grains of RL 15 on my last Safari.


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #54886 - 15/04/06 08:59 AM


No, I thank you, we all know that a proof load is not some thing to use for other then testing. How ever I miss quoted a loadind manual wich could be taken by a person as a correct load and cause problems! We all make mistakes and please feel free to call me on one if you see it as I am trying to help out all of you out there not inflate my ego. Thanks again and glad you are observant.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #54887 - 15/04/06 09:07 AM

All I have left to do on my 450 is to finish the checkering. I tried 81 grains of the 3031 as you mentioned and it shot great but a bit slow at 2250 feet per second. I am thinking of going up a bit. 88 grains of RL15 gave me fair results with the 480 grain slugs but again a bit slow so I am going to try 90 grains. All of these loads seem to print to about the same point as you said and the rifle is shooting 1.25" apart at 50 yards which in this case should put it about on at 100 yards. Bye the way, good to hear from you again!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54889 - 15/04/06 10:07 AM


Judson,

Fascinating post.

Why do you say "a bit slow at 2250 feet per second" ?

What speed are you trying to achieve and why ?

Just for my own interest.

500 Nitro


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577500WR
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Anchorage, AK
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54890 - 15/04/06 10:49 AM

I think it was a typo of SLOW for LOW.

2250 fps isn't slow.



--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: 577500WR]
      #54895 - 15/04/06 12:10 PM


I thought that but then he says going up a bit to 88gns ?

500 Nitro


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54950 - 16/04/06 11:05 AM

The "A bit slow" was refering to the 350 grain slug and acording to NE450#2 I should be at 2300 or a bit faster and pressure being pressure if you are low on velosity then you are low on pressure. Doubles are not built to take the pressures of a bolt gun and trying to get up to those pressures is crazy. However 2350 fps with a 350 grain bullet is well within the pressure range of the 450#2 chambering with a 26" barrel. Increasing velosity of a double rifle will bring your point of impact closer togther in most cases and this is what I am trying to do. Do not get me wrong I am very happy with the 1.25" groups at fifty yards but I am trying to taylor some loads where the 480 grain bullets and the 350 grain bullets will print the same or very close. Make no mistake the velosity I am getting now is something I can happily live with as it will dock down any thing I can hunt but experimenting is fun and educational, (I think). The 88 grains of RL 15 is with the 480 grain bullet and after today I will try 90 as again I am a bit low on the velosity for the 450#2 but not un happy with what I am getting.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #54951 - 16/04/06 11:10 AM

How do the cup points work out on game? My wife Barbara and I are planing a trip for 2007 with D.K.Safaris and Hans De Klerk was telling me that he thought those bullets might be the best of both worlds, soft vers solids.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2281
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #54976 - 16/04/06 08:43 PM

Judson and all,

Been looking at guns on the internet trying to get some idea whats out there to build on.

Looking at guns on the internet for this project is very frustrating. I can't see anything that you told me to look for.

In reply to:

The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel. Most actions will have the proof pressure marked on them some where and with basic math you will be able to figure if your cartridge falls within this pressure range. Also you want small diameter firing pins, lots of the old guns, and cheep guns have firing pin diameters that are far too large and even if the proof range is right bushing firing pins for a center fire rifle cartridge is a real pain. Good luck, have fun and be safe, and yes Brown's book is well worth the money.




I went to Gunsamerica and queried SxS under $1000

Here is the list of Guns I came up. I am not interested in a particular gun that was offered for sale but only the design itself for building into a double rifle.

Are there any on this list that should just be eliminated from consideration for building into a double rifle all together. Like Stevens 311 lineage, which I left off the list.

Are there any here that should be "first choice"

Heres' the list:

1. Browning BSS
2. Baker Batavia
3. Steoger uplander
4. Boito
5. CZ Huglu
6. Charles Daly
7. EAA Baikel
8. Virginia Capes
9. Fox Model B
10. Fox Sterling worth
11. Ithaca
12.SKB
13 Lafever
14. L.C. Smith
15 Remington 1900
16. Spartan
17. Needham
18 BSA
19 Bozard
20 Hooten
21 Midland
22 Armstrong
23 Excam
24 Miroku
25 Aya
26 Kabala
27 Simpson
28 J.P.Sauer

Wow that's quite a list.














--------------------
DD, Ret.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #54979 - 16/04/06 09:10 PM

DD

QUOTE FROM ABOVE "The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to
be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt
and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel."

The above is really a description of an Anson and Deeley Boxlock Shotgun such as a
GREENER Pidgeon Gun or many of the other English SxS Shotguns.
I say Pidgeon guns as they were proofed for 2 3/4" cases and had Pistol Grip stocks.

I think the following may fit IF you can't find a Greener
BSA
21 Midland
27 Simpson
28 J.P.Sauer

German guns were always strongly built.

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (17/04/06 03:02 AM)


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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54987 - 17/04/06 01:08 AM

DD,

A couple of the other guns on that list will work. Though 500Nitro just gave you great advice. I mainly use the german guns because they are strong and cheap compared to english guns.

From time to time you can find a Greener with bad barrels for $400-$500. The big thing with online is to ask questions and for more pictures if necessary. It take time but you can get some deals as well. For example I bouth this German 16 ga for conversion for $105.

Just be patient and keep looking.

The stoeger and the baikal/spartan will take the pressure but they are very rough compared to just about all other sxs's. The Miroku 500 and BSS are basically the same gun (same frame as Miroku made the BSS however the Miroku has double triggers and extractors) and are very strong but don't have the third fastner.

Bill


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2281
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #55000 - 17/04/06 03:29 AM

I was looking for more info on the BSA today and found a Picture and it doesn't appear to have third fastener. True?

I am not in a rush to buy yet. I'm still in the education mode.

I am headed to America next weekend and catch a late plane back the following Friday. Late enough that I can run by the Dulles Convention Center and see if the one of the book sellers has Ellis Brown's book.




--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #55015 - 17/04/06 08:39 AM


From what I have been told the CZ would work very well. I have never looked at one of these guns but have baan told they have all bases covered.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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