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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
577 [Re: banzaibird]
      #50761 - 24/02/06 03:04 PM

Where to find one.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #50764 - 24/02/06 03:44 PM

In reply to:

the chamber is a bit thin as we build it on a sleeved 12 gauge



Well there are 12-bores and there are 12-bores! My .577 x 2 3/4 Light Nitro is built on a sleeved 12-bore shotgun too. No problems whatsoever with chamber-wall thickness.

I should add that the Greener 'Empire' is a massive shotgun with a long action-bar. The Brits distinguished fairly well between 'game-guns' and their 'pigeon-guns' or 'fowlers'. The latter two are usually heavily built, long-chambered, and proved for heavier loads. Many early pigeon-guns even had 3-inch chambers. This distinction is not always clear-cut in Continental or American guns.

Furthermore, a 12-bore Greener 'Empire' is about 3mm wider across the breech-face than the 10-bore Zabala! True! Might pay to put the calipers across that Centaure before making a decision, though the one on GB sure looks wider! I'll measure my Greener's chamber-wall thickness on the weekend and report back. I have three Empires BTW, two of which are still 12-bore shotguns!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #50768 - 24/02/06 04:09 PM

Marrakai,

These guns are simply enormous. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll dig mine out of the safe and measure it. I'm guessing it has to be right around 3" across the face.

The actions aren't much to look at but with some sculpting of the fences and the reinforcement it will look better. Though it will never be an elegant gun, it will be one stout shooter. I bought mine at a local shop for $350 it had been there for years. No one wanted to lug it around. Anyway it is also a pretty heavy proof for the gun. I figured one day I might go completely insane and build a 577 or larger on it .

BB

P.S.- Even though I got mine for $350 I’d gladly give you $795 (the cost of the linked Centaure) for your Greener’s . I won’t even ask for an inspection period .


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #50771 - 24/02/06 04:28 PM

Speaking of shotgun actions which are set up for long cartridges...

I have this coming in the mail.
It should be here some time next week.




It's said to be the ass end of an eight bore Coggie.
The lockwork and action parts are all supposed to be good and the wood sound.
We'll just see.

There are also a pair of Mossberg 3-1/2" magnum 12b slug rifle blanks coming -- profiled, chambered, and threaded but not cut and fitted for the Mossberg action, so no mag tube hanger or reciever extention or extractor cut... just the profiled and chambered barrel blanks.

Sickness.
It's all just so bad and wrong...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: tinker]
      #50775 - 24/02/06 05:10 PM

Where did you find that? I'd be awful tempted to do this to it Jeffrey

It looks like it would be about the right size to.

BB


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: tinker]
      #50781 - 24/02/06 09:35 PM

Hee Hee, I'd just have to make an 8-bore double rifle out of it!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: banzaibird]
      #50791 - 25/02/06 01:52 AM

That Jeffrey is just luscious.

We'll just say a little bird tipped me off to the C&H.
I really didn't have to pay anything for it either too, the whole deal all somehow came through to me via a somewhat sideways trade-bait shift (gotta love it when you wake up to all the right things coming and going around at the same -right time- for this kind of deal) and at the end of the day on the transaction I'll have some very distracting projects off the bench, replaced by one very distracting project.

I don't think eight bore rifle would be a very appropriate game plan for this action too. Judging from my conversations with the guy who sent it along to me and the photos, it's definitely a shotgun and doesn't seem to be a very heavy one for an eight bore. The barrel blanks, on the other hand, are about as tough a pair of twelve bore barrels I'm going to be able to get my hands on, and they should be able to handle whatever I can stuff into three and a half inches of twelve bore brass.


We'll just see.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
470 NE Loads [Re: Marrakai]
      #50798 - 25/02/06 03:48 AM

THinking about one.

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deant
.224 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 47
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: banzaibird]
      #50805 - 25/02/06 04:45 AM

I picked up a nice W J jeffry double barrel 12gauge shotgun cheap! Was going to make it into a double rifle found out it is worth about 4 times what I paid for it. Maybe someday Ill be able to make an entire set of barrels for it. so I dont have to cut up the originals.
Dean


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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: deant]
      #50838 - 25/02/06 09:53 AM

Deant,

I'm all for conversion of some shotguns to DR's if that's what you like. However I persoanlly would be forced to track you down and smack you in the head if you cut up a perfectly fine pair of WJ Jeffrey barrels .

Enjoy it for what it is a fine shotgun that you should be proud of. As you said perhaps later you can make or get made a set of barrels.

I say that one because there really aren't that many out there that we should be cutting up these fine old examples of shotguns. Also when you cut them you have to worry about strength not only whether they are chopper lump or shoe lump, dovetailed etc but also in the metalurgy with the increased pressure.

As I said please don't cut up perfectly fine barrels for that old classic.

Tinker,

I came accross that Jeffrey when I was surfing the web drolling over all the fine doubles. There is something about it that makes me want to go to the bank and get a loan .

BB

BB


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: banzaibird]
      #50839 - 25/02/06 10:28 AM

No kidding...

Really, it just looks so nice.
And the price doesn't seem so bad, a loan of that size wouldn't be much of a burden.

The 8b ass-end I have coming looks to be just the thing for an ass whacking fun gun with a bit of soul. Milling, filing, and fitting the monoblock for this one will be fun, it'll keep me off the streets and outta trouble for a little while at least.
I wonder if the original barrels for this gun will ever come my way. Evidently the barrels and action were seperated quite a long time ago back in the UK, something about a tavern prank or some such tomfoolery.
I'm not counting on it.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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deant
.224 member


Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 47
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: banzaibird]
      #50872 - 26/02/06 01:28 AM

BB
When I bought her online I thought it was a cheap copy not a real Jeffery. When I got it I was shocked and no way could I cut her up. I might shoot her in a few rounds of cowboy action shooting this summer But with the utmost care I hope someday my machining skills will be up to the tasks of making a set of new barrels for it.
Last summer there was an older guy at a cowboy shoot I noticed his shotgun and checked it out closer It was a fully engraved with the initial plate and all the works tolley?? if I remember right? it was twice as nice as my Jeffery! He said he got it for almost nothing at a garage sale. I almost cried when I saw he had cut the barrels off and given it a nice glossy refinish . I hope he is around again this year might be able to rescue that one for a project.
Deant


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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: deant]
      #51268 - 03/03/06 10:54 AM


I have finally started checkering my rifle!!! My wife Barbara is taking pictures of it as work progresses.
I am doing a fill in pattern and it is a Fleur di lis pattern, I will try to keep you up to date but I have to get some film developed befor you get any pictures, I should get a digital camera!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Judson]
      #51276 - 03/03/06 12:29 PM

Judson-

That's great!
I can't wait to see the style and pattern you work out for your rifle.
I'll stay tuned.


Marrakai-

I've gotten the Coggie and it's really in much better shape than I'd thought.
Very nice, actually. I'm still waiting on the arrival of the 12b 3-1/2" magnum barrels. In the meantime I've been reading up on the eight bore rifle.
I may well end up making a set of eight bore barrels for it too, I just need to first talk to some barrel makers here in the states. There was a man noted in a thread months ago on the topic of reboring double rifles, I'd contacted him and discussed the possibility of him making me a set of sixteen bore barrels for a hotrod long brass nitro 16b roundball gun I want to make.
I should track his info down and see if he's interested in doing eight bore barrels.
Ten drams of black powder amd small for eight bore standard roundball would be on the light end of the eight bore loads, and lots of fun to shoot without hammering me or the action to death.

Someone had noted in the double rifle measurements thread that they have a ten bore double rifle. I should contact them and see how thier action measures up against this C&H.
Although next to my Tolley it seems like a giant, I'm wondering how much bigger the 8b SxS rifle actions were (if at all) than 8b SxS shotgun actions.
I've seen 8b double rifles without any kind of third bite and really don't want to get into any kind of trouble as far as action strength goes...
A really big bore black powder roundball SxS rifle would be such a hoot though!
I'll hold you accountable if I end up folding to the absolutely impractical lure of building such a large bore rifle out of this thing.
That and I'll let you shoot it!


--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #51419 - 04/03/06 11:24 AM

No sure about that yet. I'll check.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #51466 - 04/03/06 10:55 PM

colorado:
In reply to:

are your barrels scratch build or lined



Not quite sure what that means, but my Greener has been sleeved with .577 rifle barrels in the traditional sense, meaning the shotgun barrels were lopped ahead of the flats, reamed out, and maybe threaded (not sure). The .577 barrels had a ferrule turned on the breech end (and maybe threaded) to fit into the 'monobloc'.

Personally I don't really mind whether they were threaded or simply tinned into the monobloc, the gun was proved so all is well. I could always phone Rolph B_ and ask him, if I ever start to lose sleep over it!

The strikers are not bushed, however the Greener has relatively fine firing-pins so the risk is small. It would be better had it been bushed of course, but no worries so far. I have witnessed an FN shotgun pierce a primer, and the blow-back through the firing-pin hole blew the side of the stock-head off. The errant chunk of walnut landed about 30 yds away! A friend has a .400 NE A&N double that has suffered the same fate at some point in its past, the sliver simply reattached with epoxy-resin awaiting the inevitable restock.


BTW bonanza, the chamber-wall thickness on my Greener .577 is 0.260 inch at the breech-face.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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tinker
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Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #51478 - 05/03/06 03:13 AM

Wooo golly!

Quarter inch thick chamber walls. That's the stuff successful hot proofs are made of.

About venting as a percaution for the possible blown primer...
In a conversation with Geoffroy Gourmet some time last year we'd been discussing setting up an R series Darne for hot bore rifle loads. The action we were talking about didn't have the typical gas seal discs on the breech face like the V series guns have, and he noted that a great way to vent the primers was to take a graver and cut a circle around the firing pin holes on the breech face, and from those circles make a cut just as deep (.020" or so) from the edge of the circles running down the breech face to just about where the breech face meets the action flats. The circle should be just about the same diameter as the primer. This way, the little groove doesn't allow the primer to deform into it during firing, but allows a path of least resistence for blowby gas out to the atsmophere -- at pretty much the same spot gas valves would blow via vented pin bushings, without damage to the action. He noted that this was a typical method of venting guns that don't have pin bushings. Since then I've had my eyes out for such detail and have seen a few Liege and Ferlach guns with this feature, some of them had a groove cut connecting the circles between the two firing pin locations effectively giving twice the venting volume to each firing pin.
Pretty simple detail, takes much less time to perform on the gun, and it'll do well to work along with vented striker bushings if that ends up happening in the future of the gun as well.

Looks like this


Marrakai, can you measure the diameter of those firing pins for me and guesstimate the radius in inches on the firing pin tips please?


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: tinker]
      #51481 - 05/03/06 04:29 AM

Interesting.

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: tinker]
      #51516 - 05/03/06 12:03 PM


In reality those gas groves do very little in the event of a blown primer or case seperation. The idea is good but in practice the groves too small and shallow. If they were deep enough and located properly then they might help some but would in them selves cause problems with un suported sections of the case and primer. In the pictures it lookes like a ring around the primmer. If the firing pin punches through the primmer then the gas is vented into the hole surounding the firing pin and not to the vent ring around the primer. If the vent ring had a line cut to the center of the firing pin hole this would leave the primer unsuported in this area and would allow the primer to flow back into this cut causing the rifle to be hard opening at best and allowing the primmer to blow along this line at worst. The grove from the ring around the primmer to the out side of the breach is far too narrow and shallow to allow the volume of gas fron a blown case to escape quickly. These features may help some but not enough!!! The hole idea is not to blow primers or cases and with modern components it one sticks to the proper loadings this is not a problem. Think about it, with modern rifles firing either good, sane hand loads or factory ammo, when was the last time you saw a blown primmer? Also with the pressures double rifles are built to take using magnum primmers drastically reduces this problem.
Most of these problems date back to the cordite days and though worth keeping in mind are not much of a problem today.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Judson]
      #51537 - 05/03/06 12:50 PM

Judson:
You are quite correct about the vented breech-face NOT catering for a blown primer. They were developed to prevent gas-cutting of the breech-face in the event of a leaking primer. I can look it up in Crudgington & Baker if anyone is interested, but the several variations of the vented breech-face are covered under a Scott patent I believe.

As previously stated, the problem with many shotguns is that the firing-pins or strikers are quite large compared with bolt-guns and nitro double rifles, so a large portion of the centre of the primer is unsupported at the moment of ignition: not a problem with low-pressure shotshells. However at NE pressures, this may cause the primer to flow back into the firing-pin hole, and rupture when the elastic limit is reached. The full pressure of firing is then funnelled straight back into the action and stock-head, with potentially disasterous results.

The best way to guard against this, other than bushing the strikers or firing-pins, is to choose actions for conversion which have small-diameter firing-pins and minimum gap around the pins in the breech-face. Judson, we could probably come up with some guidance or 'rule of thumb' for this. I'll measure my Greener as Tinker suggests, and a few nitro doubles and old shotguns, what are your thoughts on the actual maximum recommended size?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Judson]
      #51539 - 05/03/06 12:53 PM


W&C Scott used to have the circle and line out to the side
to get rid of the hot gasses.

I agree, with odern components and safe loads, I do not think
it will be a problem.

500 Nitro


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #51550 - 05/03/06 02:19 PM

Low pressure is better.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #51556 - 05/03/06 05:50 PM

Colorado:
Regarding over-size firing-pins, the primer is not pierced by the firing-pin, but is likely to blow out into the firing-pin hole, pushing the pin back in the process, and venting into the action and stock-head. In that case the primer ruptures because it is largely unsupported, having already been stretched and weakened by the pin-strike. It is not pierced!

This doesn't happen when firing shotshells in guns with oversize firing-pins as the pressure is relatively low. Chambering a full nitro rifle cartridge is going to increase the pressure by 3 to 8 times, depending on the cartridge! That primer needs to be very well supported indeed! I'm repeating my earlier post I know, apologies, but apparently it's necessary.

In the case of the FN shotgun mentioned earlier, it was a pierced primer due to a damaged firing-pin. I related that account simply to draw attention to the potentially disasterous effects of high-pressure gas getting into the firing-pin holes. Bushed strikers will prevent this happening regardless of the cause.


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #51568 - 05/03/06 09:37 PM

OK guys, here's a pictorial example of what I'm talking about.

Gun on the left is my Greener .577 conversion, with firing-pin holes measuring ~95 thou (2.4mm) in diameter. Gun on the right is a Birmingham BP-proved shotgun with firing-pin holes measuring ~150 thou (almost 4mm dia.). No way should anyone convert an action like that without bushing the strikers!




While I'm posting photos, your earlier request for pics of the Greener's breech with and without loaded cartridges was not forgotten, colorado.




Actually I cheated a bit here The BP action with the over-size firing-pin holes is in fact a hammer-gun, so the strikers are bushed anyway, from the rear. Nevertheless, ruptured primers would be a strong possibility with full nitro loads IMHO.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: Marrakai]
      #51576 - 06/03/06 01:08 AM

Wow, look how thin the wall on the barrel is. It looks as though the sleeve is thicker than what remains of the barrel. I know it must be safe because it was reproofed and your shooting it regularly but I don't think I'll try anything that close anytime soon .

I know I've read your story on it but what is the weight again? Also does it have anything to reduce recoil?

BB


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