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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #40784 - 06/11/05 11:42 AM

I'm just posting to the thread to re-enforce my favor (for this particular rifle) of the Fluer-de-Lys pattern.

I can't wait to see what kind of elegant take on that style Judson works on that lovely piece of wood.
Some of the nicest American custom rifles I've handled wore such checkering pattern styles, I think this rifle's appearance would take that kind of pattern well.


That and I can't wait to see and hear the tips and techniques he's going to detail during the transfer and bordering of a good Fluer-de-Lys checker job.




--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: tinker]
      #41138 - 10/11/05 10:39 AM


The checkering is one of the last things done when building a rifle. I usually do not do the checkering untill I feel the stock is finished and will only need two more light wipe on coats of finish. These last two coats will seal the checkering but are not enough to fill the checkering.
All our checkering is done by hand and no electric tools are used. The reason for this is that with the electric checkering tools one is cutting deep enough on the first pass to really create a problem if there is a mistake. In addition to this the electric tools leave the checkering fuzzy and can not get out to the edges of the pattern. This means that you have to remove the fuz and clean up the edges and borders by hand any way. Good checkering will not hide the grain of the wood if it is clean cut. It might tone it down a bit but you will still see the figure clearly.
All checkering patterns weather fill in or point pattern are based on two scribed lines forming an X and the angles of the diamonds to be cut. Over here diamonds 3.5 times as long as they are wide is the most popular. Over seas longer slimmer diamonds seem to be more the style.
The two lines that form this X are called the master lines and create the diamonds of the pattern. You lay one edge of your spacing tool, which has two sets of teeth in the master line and very lightly mark out the next line. Then the cutter is moved over so that the teeth that were in the master line is now in the line you just cut. This process is repeated until the pattern is filled in in one direction. Then the other angle is cut thus forming thi diamonds. This initial lay out should barely cut through the finish and it will take many passes in order to finish a pattern. Cutting checkering right takes time, a good clean simple pattern around 20 to 30 hours if done right.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #41322 - 12/11/05 06:06 AM

Judson,

Contratulations on your project. As Marrakai pointed out in one of his comments, most of what has been written here is a collection of ideas and opinions, some good and some not so good, but few experiences like yours. It is good to see great positive results from risky projects like building a double.
Another friend told about a successfull deer hunt using his home made 12 bore rifle, and it was a pleasure to read about. His project gun is also another very good example of a great "home-made" gun.
Speaking for myself, I am on the works of building a double too, on a Beretta action. I hope I will have the gun ready for test fire in the next few weeks (progress is being slow...). I hope it will look so good as yours. Again, it is being great to know all the details of your project.

Fred

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: doublegunfan]
      #41342 - 12/11/05 11:16 AM


I really thank you people for all your intrest in my work! There are a few things I should make clear to you.
First I am not saying you can not do what I have done but keep in mind building rifles is how I make my pay check.
Second, any time you make such drastic changes as building a double rifle on a shotgun action IT HAS TO BE RE PROOFED!!!! Your life and body parts, as well as others depends on this. When re-proofing a gun it should be in a shooting fixture not your hands and you should be in a safe place. I should have gone over this earlier but I left this, probably the most important part out!!!! I do not want you people getting hurt or worse!!!!
Most guns have the proof pressures stamped on the frame it is rather easy with a good loading book and a bit of basic math to figure out if your intended cartridge falle within these pressures. If it does not the best bet is to look else where for an action. As for the proof testing load I use the German methiod which is; Max load for the cartridge and up the bullet weight 10 percent. In the case of my 450 this was an 18 grain over load of IMR 4831 which even in a case the size of the 450#2 a substancial over load.
Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage any of you but please be careful and safe and do not take chances. In my line of work I see many short cuts which can and some times do lead to disaster, I do not want any of you to be part of that. Check your pressures, Proof test and use your brain and if you need help please contact me!!!!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #49789 - 12/02/06 10:59 AM

Since I see a lot of intrest out there on building double rifles I thought I would bring this up to the front again and also post some more info and pictures in the next few days. I hope this is helpful to you!!!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #49890 - 14/02/06 04:27 AM

I've heard both, that they are super strong frames and can take it, and that they won't handle the load due to the lock-ups. What is the real weakness? The locking lugs or the frame? Bonanza thinks the locking lugs are not the issue, but the strength of the frame.

What did Searcy do to the BSS to make it strong enough?

My own opinion is that the action has to be strong enough not to open under recoil and the frame strong enough not the crack at the 90-degree bend at the water-tables. This might be achieved if you use a low pressure round like a 450 #2. My understanding of the stresses applied to doubles is that the frame is put under tension stress. Considering this the 90-degree bend at the water-tables is a stress riser and this is the place that a failure will occur. If you can add more metal at the bend, the frame should take the load; you can also reduce the pressure by said above low-pressure cartridge and achieve the same thing. One thing that can be done inexpensively is to highly polish the frame and round-out the 90-degree bend, this will significantly reduce the stress rising effect of the 90 angle and also reduce induced surface stress. All milling marks need to be polished out, and sharps edges removed; stress analysis 101.

Now if you were to convert one to a double inline muzzleloader, the load is now spread across more of the frame because the lugs are now going to take some of the applied rearward force. Food for thought.

The idea here with our project is to be able to take any decent quality double shotgun and using our engineering experience (aeronautical) figure out a way to strengthen the actions to handle a full NE load at a reasonable cost. I think with proper engineering it will.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49896 - 14/02/06 05:03 AM

Well the frames are kind of thin looking but seem to be heavy enough. Now keep in mind that I haven't built anything more powerful than the 9.3x74r on a shotgun frame. I've been thinking of a 450#2 on an exposed hammer frame I have but haven't progressed there yet.

Anyway as i said the fram is on the thinner side but i truly beleive that the problem is in the fact that the gun has 1 bite and it's not a very large bite at that. If you want I can get exact measurements of the action and the bite, it will just take me a day or so. I think if you are going to to try to take a production shotgun action and build a DR off of that action you would be better off going with the CZ (Huglu) actions. They have 2 underbites and a crossbolt and can be had from $500-$900 depending on the model you pick up.

In your other post you said you were getting Brown's book on building DR's on shottie actions. I'd say that will handle a lot of your questions, but I should say that there are allot that don't totally agree with his methods/ideas.

The first double I ever made was a 38-55 built on a Lefever Notro Express 20 ga action. Lets say that it wasn't successful with full power loads but is fun to shoot with black powder to this day. I guess what I'm trying to say that you can build a DR on just about any action if you are prepared to live with constraints for safety purposes. However you also have to remember not to forget the finished project and exactly how useful it will be to you for the time, work and money you have invested.

As I said above the CZ actions seems to make a great conversion. We built the one for my father-in-law for about $1,100. Works well but in the end it doesn't seem to have the "soul" that my 9.3x74r on the Merkel Model 8 frame has. That gun I built for about $1,500. All a matter of what you're looking for.

Now I mean no offense but the inline double mussloader has absolutely zero interest for me so I'll let you to speculate and test on that subject.

BB

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #49897 - 14/02/06 05:07 AM

Oh, forgot the BSS question. The Miroku 500/BSS has a significantly heavier frame and came with double underbite from the factory. I beleive that Searcy Added a 3rd bite to the frames he used. Though to be fair I've never seen one of these conversions in person.

BB

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #49906 - 14/02/06 07:32 AM

I agree with you 100% on the CZ. They are the toughest cheap gun you can get for the conversion. How is the over all fit and finish of the gun? Do you build your barrels up from scratch? If so how? As in where do you get your ribs, barrels, blacks etc?

Right now we're welding shotti barrels then sleeving them using a method I designed. The method moves most of the mass aft between the hands so the gun feels quick, like a DR should.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49915 - 14/02/06 09:36 AM

Colorado,

I hope Judson chimes in here as the begining of this thread shows a great build and much the way I do it now. Besides I want to see the rifle, I hope he desides on the Fluer checkering.

Anyway I had been using contors as they were from the blank makers such as Douglas or Shilen. However on the last 3 now I've taken to turning the blanks to my own set of dimensions. This allows me to thin out the end of the barrels alot and get the weight back between the hands. This really makes a difference in the handling of the DR. I've been using monoblocks that I build or sleeving barrels that have been cut. However I'm only willing to cut the barrels if they have a flaw, personal choice. In fact I wouldn't cut the barrels on the CZ that my father -in-law wanted to use because there was nothing wrong with them. After a short exchange on my reasoning he proceded to lay the barrel on the anvil and smash them flat with a hammer, thus they were flawed and I'd cut them off .

The fixtures and approach to how I regulate comes a lot from the procedures Brown lays out in his book. I'm fortunate as one of the guy's I've corrupted ..err.. convinced to help me is a retired tool and die maker who has a complete shop at his house. Thus if I'm unable to make what I need I simply tell/show him and he cranks one out in no time. Honestly the hardest part for me has been laying the ribs. The tinning and soldering the sight or barrel sleaves etc is pretty easy but laying the ribs has been quite a challenge at times for me. I've bought ribs from Numrichs but have been making ribs with many thanks to the machinist back-up I have who has made a fixture to make ribs. They only require minor filing where he changes cutters to get them to match barrel contours. On top of that the local gunsmiths have been really helpful when I need some technical help or have some issue that we can't figure out on our own.

The fit and finish of the CZ guns is quite good. Not just for the money but actually quite good. Now please don't think that it's in the same class as a Purdy, Westley Richards or a Holland & Holland etc. However it is far and away better than the basically equivalent priced Baikals. In fact I'd put it on par with most any prodiction gun that is priced at twice the amount of the CZ's.

Among our group now we've made 11 DR's. More than half of them I made. So I have an idea what has worked so far and what hasn't. The last couple have been pretty nice but people like Searcy have nothing to fear from me . I build them for one reason because currently that is the only way I can afford to have one or some. At 32 years old and a growing family I'm not exactly rolling in money as a FF/EMT. However my house is due to be paid off in about 4 years and then i plan on buying a decent double that began it's life as a double. However my builds have left me get into doubles a lot sooner than i would have. I built my first one almost a decade ago and the others since then have only cost me a total of about $6,400. Now I suppose if over that same time I would have simply saved I could have bought a used Chapius or Merkel but as it is I have 6 to play with till I can afford a nice old English gun.

Sorry for being longwinded.

BB

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #50005 - 15/02/06 11:55 AM


Glad to see that there is still intrest in this thread!!
When I build a double I use different solders for differnt parts. For the quater rib I use silver braze which flows at around 1500 degrees if I remember right. For the wedges I use a lead based solder around 50-50 which flows at around 150 degrees higher then Brownells 44 silver bearing solder which is what I use for the ribs.
If you solder the ribs with the 44 and use an welding torch I have found that if you crank the O2 up high you can put enough heat into the rib and barrel to get a good joint but not mealt the higher temp lead alloy solder. I chase my rib joints with a soaking wet paper towel and once you get it down you will not get a "cold joint".
By using several different tempriture solders you have a bit of lee way as far as softening up the other joints. It takes a bit of time to get the feel for this but for me it works great.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
500NE [Re: banzaibird]
      #50043 - 16/02/06 01:45 AM

93 Grains RL 15.

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50307 - 19/02/06 12:05 PM

I have another French double action on the way to me. This one is a big 12 gauge with junk barrels, (Crushed by the Muzzel) it has double under lugs with 3 bites and a third hidden fastener. When it arrives I will check the proof marks but it looks like this one will become either a .470 NE, .475 #2 NE or a 500 NE. Which way would you go and why?

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #50334 - 20/02/06 05:01 AM

I just don't know.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Loc: Washington, USA
9.3x74R [Re: Judson]
      #50336 - 20/02/06 05:09 AM

good choice in a DR?

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #50364 - 20/02/06 12:45 PM

Thank you for your input! The .475 I am considering is the .475 # 2 NE which is basically the .450 # 2 NE necked up. It runs about the same pressure as the 450 # 2 NE but has a .483 diameter bullet and as with many of the NE cartridges the same performance. I have a customer that would like the .475 mainly because he likes the huge 3.5 inch case and the total length of 4.5 inches. He thinks that is rather impressive and since he is a hand loader this is not a problem. Since I do not have any experiance with shooting game with these cartridges how do they stack up against the .458 Winchester? I know its reputation and I hope these cartridges do better, I know the .500 does and also the .470. I will be using my .450 # 2 NE on my third trip to Africa in 2007 but not on dangerous game so I value your input. Thanks again!

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Judson]
      #50373 - 20/02/06 02:53 PM

Just tossed these exact same thoughts up on your other thread, Judson. Long-time posters will already know my views on the .577 Light Nitro too! Love that cartridge!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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vigillinus
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #50661 - 23/02/06 06:53 PM


at the Albany NY gun show a few weeks ago a gent had a .22LR double that he had built. Quite neat. Got his name etc. but have misplaced it. He will probably be at the next show in a few months.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: vigillinus]
      #50726 - 24/02/06 07:44 AM

The 450 No2 and the 475 No2 are not the same cases.
The 475 No2 has a bigger base and a larger diameter rim.

Before I bought my double rifles I thought of all the Nitro Express rounds I would like the 450 No2 the best.

First the 458 Bore, the choice in bullet selection alone is reason enough to get any variety of 450 Nitro.

The No2 case has a thick strong rim. It has a definate neck, which is a little easier to load then a normal straight sided case.
Also since the case body is larger that the bullet diameter it is very easy when reloading the rifle, as the bullet is much smaller than the rear diameter of the chamber, so you are inserting the .458 bullet into a .56 diameter hole.
After nine years of shooting my 450 No2 on the deer lease, and one trip to Africa [3 elephants and 2 buff], I feel I made the right choice, for me anyway.

I also have a 450/400 3 1/4" and like it very much.
In reality all of the Nitro Express cartridges will get the job done, I just like the 458 Bore.

I shoot quite a few 350 grain Hornady RN bullets on deer and pigs.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #50732 - 24/02/06 08:31 AM

Tony,

You have made me feel that much better about my Jeffrey! I have a bunch of 350, 400 and 500 .458 bullets to monkey with. However, I'll say that the 500/450 is also a great cartridge for the same reasons.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #50734 - 24/02/06 08:48 AM

Marrakai,

Colorado and I really want to build the .577 light nitro, but the chamber is a bit thin is we build it on a sleeved 12 gauge.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #50739 - 24/02/06 09:43 AM

Look for a 10 gauge Belgian Centaur. Usually can be had for about $400-$600 and actually has double underbite, crossbolt and a bite behind the crossbolt.

I have one sitting around that I was thinking of for a 577 down the road.

BB

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #50740 - 24/02/06 09:59 AM

Whoops, "Centaure" is the correct spelling.

BB

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building a double rifle [Re: banzaibird]
      #50743 - 24/02/06 11:24 AM

Here is the gun I'm talkign about. I think that this guy is asking a bit much but that's just my opinion.

Centaure and Gunbroker

BB

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Hollis 500/450 [Re: banzaibird]
      #50759 - 24/02/06 03:00 PM

Where can I get on of them?


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