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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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oupa
.300 member


Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: banzaibird]
      #52411 - 14/03/06 02:21 PM

Guy's I'm a "student" of this mystical practice of converting shotguns to rifles but soak up every bit of info on the subject I can... so please be kind.

Quote "...Regarding over-size firing-pins, the primer is not pierced by the firing-pin, but is likely to blow out into the firing-pin hole, pushing the pin back in the process..."

PLEASE correct me if my assumptions are incorrect but turning new, longer strikers that would just barley retract beyond the surface of the breech face - making up the difference in over-all length on the other end of the striker - seems to answer this concern, does it not? This is of course in the case of bushed strikers. Turning new pins would be so easy, especially if it would provide such insurance.


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4seventy
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Re: Long shotgun actions [Re: oupa]
      #52419 - 14/03/06 05:23 PM

Oupa,
Sadly it is not that simple.
In order for these lengthened pins to work they would have to perfectly fill the striker hole.
This means that they would have to be flush with the nipple which also means they would have to have flat tips with sharp corners and this in itself is bad news regarding the possability of piercing the cup as well as other issues.
If a spherical tip was used the cup metal could still flow into the outer part of the nipple drilling.
Reducing the diameter of the strikers is no big deal on guns with bushed pins.
By the way, cartridges developing low pressures like many of the old Nitro Express rounds, often still work well with larger diameter strikers.
The problem concerning flow back of cup metal into the striker hole is usually associated with higher pressures like those developed by the 375 mag and others.


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
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Hollis 500/450 [Re: Judson]
      #52453 - 15/03/06 03:57 AM

Loads?

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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #52455 - 15/03/06 05:08 AM

A 525gr. 50 cal. flat nosed slug at 1,750fps is quite a powerful load. It will certainly do for any & all game in North America and most in Africa and India for that matter. It exceeds any loadings used in the .500 BPE and comes close in bullet weight and velocity for the .577BPE, lacking only bulet diameter which does make a difference. FPE doesn't show this, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #52469 - 15/03/06 11:02 AM

The first French action I used is a Fusal Robust 16 ga it is very tight and no measurements have changed after being re-proofed and 100 pluss rounds of standard loads. The action I just recieved is a 12 ga Verney Carron and has three bites on the double under lugs and a hidden fastener. It also has side clips and firing pins which measure .82" so it has promise and will probably end up a .470 Nitro, I will try to post a few pictures of the gun.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (15/03/06 11:09 AM)


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Judson
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Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update [Re: Judson]
      #52470 - 15/03/06 11:43 AM


I have recieved several Emails and lots of questions about regulating double rifles so lets talk about that a bit. First, if any of you know a scientific way to regulate a double Please, Please speek up now!!!! The problem with regulating a double,(side by side) is that the recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moveing. Since the barrels are to both the left and right of the center line of the rifle we end up with both right or left rotational action and upward movement of the barrels. To simplify this a bit, the left barrel will move up and to the left and the right battel will rotate up and to the right. This is why double rifles can not be regulated from a machine rest, they have to be held and shot. For comfort this is best done from a standing bench.
Some thing else I have run into is that in jeneral a double rifle will shoot better for one person then another as far as shot seperation. When looking into this a bit I have come to the conclusion that how one holds these intriging things also changes the picture. I am not talking about flinching here but body size, grip and how stiff a person is when shooting.
We have to remember that with a bolt rifle we deal with upward and rear ward movement and for the most part that is it so hold, build and stance of the shooter is far less important. Give us yout thoughts on this and next post I will try to get into the regulating process. I am not an expert but I am more then willing to share what I have learned so please share your knowledge so that all of us can learn stuff which is new to us.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52473 - 15/03/06 12:15 PM

Your VC is about as good an action as you're going to find anywhere.
Seems like you found something nice to work with there.
Are you going to monoblock it?
If so, what happened to the barrels?


Great point on regulation and barrel activity when firing.
In all the conversations I've heard or read on the subject, this is the first time I've heard someone speak up to the 'windup' of the double rifle and as with the side by side, how that affects where the barrels point.
That might be one of the many reasons that make the double rifle an easier rifle to shoot than a single barreled bolt gun -- that some of the recoil energy is being temporarily stored via the work of twisting the barrel pair up then springing back...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
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Re: This new action... [Re: tinker]
      #52558 - 16/03/06 11:59 AM


The Verney Carron action I posted had no stoch, forearm or trigger guard when I got it. The bores of the barrels are like a mirror, however the dents and flats from being run over make me think that it would not pattern well as a shot gun. However the $100 price tag was too good to pass up. The guard and forearm Iron I will have to make as I doubt I can find replacements. I will use the remains of the barrel to make a mono block for the new barrels.

Now back to regulating. What I have been doing is to use in reality three wedges. The front one will end up being the front sight, the middle starts out half way back between the sling swivel which is the third wedge and the front sight. When I start, the bores are on the same horizontal plane but when viewed from the top they are slightly converging. This means that in theory they should print the same height but cross about two inches apart at 50 yards
I have found it is best to set your barrels up on a surface plate, (A thick piece of glass will do) and take measurements showing their exact relationship to each other. Write these down for reference. I also check and record them with a bore sighter, one with a graph in it. Every thing is held togther with hose clamps other then the clamps there is very little pressure on the wedges at this point.
Now it is out to the range behind the shop and from a standing rest I fire four shots marking each one as to which barrel. In all probility the barrels will be crossing. This means that the left barrel will be hitting to the right on the target and the right to the left. If this is the case then move the front wedge to the rear a bit. For example, if the shots were crossing and two inches apart I would move the wedge enough to spread the barrels about .004" and try again. Now it would seem that where crossing the barrelswere crossing at 50 yards and two inches apart they should be spread more like .008" but remember the rotational forces since the recoil is not along the center line of the bore.
Go back to the range and try it again after writing down all the measurements and using the bore sighter again. (By the way I came up with the correction measurements by using .001" as 1" at 100 yards or one minuite of angle, this is not quite right and there are other factors but it is close enough for our purposes)
If the elevation is off between the barrels split the difference, this is where a surface plate really helps. If you get to the point where you do not want to move the front wedge any further to the rear or you want to fine tune the regulating a bit use the middle wedge. Moving this wedge to the rear should bring the groups from each barrel closer togther and moving it forward should allow the groups to open up. Moving the third wedge(Front swivel) will have the same effect however you do not want the swivel to end up is a strange location so I only us it for final tweeking as it has less effect when moved. Both the front and middle wedges when moved make rather drastic changes and you can chace your groups all day trying to get it "just right" if you only use them. I hope I have been of some help!


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52567 - 16/03/06 01:18 PM

Judson,

This is an iteresting approach for regulating. I do it more like Brown shows in his book except I don't do any welding to the barrels. I use a generic front sight and use shim stock till I get where I want. Then after getting measurements I make the final site. The only problem I had the first couple of times was not undersizing the sight to allow for the thickness of the solder.

The reason I started building was because I couldn't afford a DR. The more of them I make the more I realize that there are many fine DR's out there that are a bargain at their current prices. Only problem is I still don't have the money for those bargains either .

I was wondering if you do anything to try to cover the seems where the monoblock and the sleeves meet? I haven't done that so far but have been thinking of maybe attempting to cover it next time and was wondering what was/has worked for others? Also have you (or anyone else for that matter) tried doing a shoe lump barrel set at all? I was thinking of trying to do this as an alternative to cover the seems on a monoblocked job.

Bill


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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #52572 - 16/03/06 01:53 PM


If you want to hide the seam where the mono block and the barrels meat then undercut the shoulder on the barrels a bit and chamfer the front of the mono block. When you crank the barrels into the mono block use enough force to cause the edges of the undercuts to raise up a bit. One trick is to turn the barrels in, back them off and crank them in again. Keep doing this enough to raise the sharp edges of the chamfer and undercut then solder them up again using enough force to raise the "lip" of the edges. DO NOT use too much force as you do not want to tweek any thing. If done correctly and polished out well no seam will be visable even with a magnifer, give it a try.
Please forgive my stupidity but what is a shoe lump? I truely do not know please explaine.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52657 - 17/03/06 10:51 AM

Judson,

I'll have to try that method of hiding the seem on my next project. Thanks for the tip.

Shoelump barrels start with the two barrels joined and then the metal that is formed into the lumps is joined to the barrels. Basically it is a way to take full length barrels and simply add the lumps to the bottom (the piece or shoe is actually contoured to the barrels where they meet). Not sure if that is clear or not. I hope it was.

Bill


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52658 - 17/03/06 10:52 AM

For a better desciption I went back through some old posts on the forum and found some pretty good ones.

Old Thread

Bill


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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #52711 - 18/03/06 11:08 AM


Thank you for the information, now I aint quite so dumb!!!!
I have a French 16 ga. that has shoe lumps and it was tripple proofed so it should take the pressure of a rifle conversion. As a matter of fact it is the highest pressure proofed gun I have so I would not say this would be a weak way of building barrels. The lumps on this gun are silver brazed or somthing simular, into place it is not a lead based soldered. For that matter the ribs and barrels are soldered togther using the same stuff! The gun was made by J-B Brunet A' Chartress do any of you know any thing about this maker?

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52715 - 18/03/06 01:04 PM

I didn't think you were dumb before. Sometimes as it would seem we know what they are but don't or aren't using the same terminology. That makes it kind of difficult some times.

I've been told that French guns for some reason seem to be proofed to the heaviest load possible a lot of times. I have a 2 1/2" 12 gauge french gun that shows the triple marks. The gun was purposely chambered for the 2 1/2" load and was manufactured in the late forties. Unfortuantely the barrels were sawed off at about 18 1/2 inches by someone. The stock was also cut off a bit. Thus it will be a future conversion.

As far as your. Sorry can't help.

Bill


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Judson
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Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #52723 - 18/03/06 04:54 PM

Thank you!!!!! I will show this post to my wife Barbara!!! What you say is very true after all to us Americans what is a pin? To the British it is a screw that you remove with a turn screw, and a tumbler is the hammer on a double.
Why there are so many French doubles up here in the Maine area I do not know other then our proximity to Canada but these guns should not be ignored and your point is well taken about the proofing of these guns. My Verney Carron is double proofed and if you check the book on proof marks you will find that it had the re-inforced proof which means a proof load of at least 20,000 psi or higher. On the other hand some French guns get proofed at lower pressure then max loads for modern ammo even though these guns are not vintage black powder jobs or so it seems from the proof marks. For example I have a 16 that was proofed at 850 kilos per cm which is on the low side and their is no indication as to weather it is bars or PSI. If you look at this action and anilise its strong point you would think it could take TNT for a proof load. This is the action I used for my .450 # 2 NE but I had other people who had mor knowledge then me about these things check it out first. Even so, and with any gun with major modifications you must re-proof the thing and not with you holding on to it!!!! In this case I used 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet as the blue pill. 118 grains of H 4831 powder is the A Square max load for a 465 grain slug, and the IMR is a few steps faster.
This much powder even with this bullet is very much on the HOT side so seating a 500 grain slug on top of that load was probably a bit intensive but a proof load should be around 30% over standerd so I gave it a shot. Two shoots from each barrel and nothing changed and 100 shots later with around 100 grains and a 480 grain bullet and still nothing has changed so all apears well.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (14/04/06 09:54 AM)


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52736 - 19/03/06 01:11 AM

*

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: This new action... [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #52746 - 19/03/06 03:40 AM

France.



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: This new action... [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #52758 - 19/03/06 10:20 AM

At least up here the French actions are out there. The last one I bought is the Verney Carron 12 ga action and as I mentioned I will have to make a new complete forearm and trigger guard but the $100 price tag was too much to resist so I own it. I got that gun out of Penn, and another at a gun show we did in Bangor for $175. The French guns are real sleepers as are a lot of the europian guns British is spelled with $ signs so the French guns end up being quite the bargan.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #52762 - 19/03/06 11:23 AM

I call foul.... You aren't allowed to buy good guns cheaply out of PA those are mine .

Well I guess I can't be to hard on you. I was in Maryland today at the Baltimore Arms show. I bought a Simpson on a Merkel Style frame, JP Sauer and a nice Belgian gun all for less than $1,000.

I got to look at a few doubles that started there lives as DR's. I couple of decent Westley Richards and a few others.

Bill


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Judson
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Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #53957 - 03/04/06 12:06 PM


The checkering on my .450 is comming along fine and I will soon be posting some pictures. If you would like I will post pictures about how to lay out a checkering pattern and how it is done, you know, the master lines and such.
The Big French 12 ga action is either going to be a .470 Nitro or a .500 Nitro, I am leaning towards the .470 for resale value but what do you think?
As for the checkering if you want to know, first you decide what you want for a pattern. This is for the most part cosmetic and up to personal taste. When doing this I use strips of electrical tape cut into 1/16" strips. These strips you can lay out along the bordors of the pattern and they will follows the curves with nicely and if you want to make changes it can be done with ease. I leave the tape on when I start cutting the checkering as it helps to prevent ren overs especially on the back stroke and you feel the tape long before you cut through it causing a run over. Once the pattern is layed out I remove the tape and from here on in you must work carefully when reaching the edges of the pattern. Checkering is not hard to do if you are careful and take your time, you will gain speed as you get experiance but even so to do it right will take time as in days not hours.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Checkering... [Re: Judson]
      #53963 - 03/04/06 12:24 PM

Judson-

I'm definitely interested in seeing photos of your checkering detail and setup.


Can't wait to see the pattern on your double.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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WildCattle
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Reged: 22/03/06
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Loc: Northern California
Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #53978 - 03/04/06 02:27 PM

Hello Judson,
One Kilo/sq cm is equivalent to 0.98 Bar. So this is a gun that is not proofed heavily at just a tad under 840 Bar. I do not know of J. Brunet. More than likely, he was a retailer who bought his actions or guns from the trade and just put his name on it. I bet that your gun has St Etienne proofs (the palms). Paris is a lot closer to Chartres, so he would likely have proofed the gun there if he had made it in his shop.
As for your remarks about heavy proofing, there is one reason: Marketing!
It became a seller's point to have heavily proofed guns such as double or triple proof, even on very high end (as well as relatively light) guns.
The Robust has a good name and is quasi-indestructible. So I would not worry too much about the proofing.
I agree with your comments on French guns. They are a lot cheaper than the british guns and are actually a lot cheaper here than in France. It is actually pretty hard to find Pre WWII guns in France as lots of them disappeared during the war. I would venture to say that the one you have in the East probably came back from Germany in 1945.


WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: Judson]
      #54068 - 04/04/06 11:49 AM

Judson,

I to would like to see the checkering. This is something that I haven't ever done. I however just bought some basic tools to teach myself checkering so would really like to hear your thoughts with the pics on layout and cradles etc.

Since you were replying to my post I'll assume you were asking my opinion on the 470 or 500. Personally I would go with the 500 simply because it is a bit more uncommon. However until recently I've never sold any of the guns that I built so resale isn't one of my considerations. The gun I recently sold was a 50/70 built on a belgian 12 gauge. It was regulated for BP. The only reason I sold it is because the offer was something I couldn't walk away from. The rest are all still here. Though the guy took the 50/70 to a different club to shoot and gave them my name so now have about 3 guys calling. However I'm not looking at doing this on a commercial venture. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the callers yet. Maybe if I thin out my homebuilts some more I can buy a DR that began it's life as a DR.

Anyway the whole point was I build what interests me and is most useful for me. I won't be headed of to Africa anytime in the next 15 years or so, so most of what I built so far is small/med. bore. That said I'd build the 500. Though I would seriously look at the 577 like Marraki shoots. In fact I've begun to assemble parts for that. I picked up a 12 gauge hammergun that I'm going to use for my 577. However I'll probably build a 450/400 3" next. The 577 really isn't practical for me but it is something I just want.

The shop I build out of has CNC capabilities and I have been thinking about making a bunch of sights, quarter ribs and sling swivels etc in different sizes for sale to other home DR builders. Not that with set-up etc I'd become rich but more of a resource. I also have most of the bugs worked out of the underlever(snap) action with trigger plate mounted internals (blitz like). When that happens I should be able to keep myself in actions for a reasonable sum.

So are the DR's something that you are offering as general services out of your shop? Or is it more of a limited offer? I think that we homebuilders should get organized a bit and we can share even more info and possibly reamers etc.

Anyway I look forward to the pics of the checkering with full description and would like to hear anything else you have on any builds.

Bill

P.S.- My 22 hornet DR (built on Huglu 28 gauge) accounted for another 5 groundhogs today .


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #54071 - 04/04/06 12:23 PM

*

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Judson
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Re: This new action... [Re: banzaibird]
      #54247 - 06/04/06 08:42 AM


I build custom rifles to earn a living, mostly bolt rifles but some doubles. The reason I got into building doubles is that I like doubles and could not afford them but also once you get into custom rifles that fit right you get spoiled and do not want the factory jobs any more. If you people want you can check out my web site which is under construction so please be patient. The site is http://www.customguns.us/

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.


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