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NitroXAdministrator
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Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma
      #38927 - 10/10/05 12:53 AM

Last Update: Sunday, October 9, 2005. 8:37am (AEST)
Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma

A Melbourne man believes he has proof that a long-standing myth about the existence of big cats in the Victorian countryside is true.

Kurt Engel of Noble Park shot dead what is believed to be a black puma near Sale in East Gippsland in June.

Experts are conducting tests to confirm the identity of the big cat.

Mr Engel says farmers have seen big cats before but until now there has been no proof of their existence.

"Up until now it was just a myth, it's like, it might be like Big Foot," he said.

"People [have] seen them but never really can prove it but now it's come through, it did happen.

"I shot one and they do exist," Mr Engel said.

Rumours of big cats being spotted roaming in Gippsland and the Grampians have been rife since the 1970s.

One theory suggests that United States troops introduced the animals during World War II, eventually dumping their ex-mascots in the bush.

Some have dismissed the big cat stories as urban legend but an academic from Deakin University revealed last year that the stories were plausible.

Dr John Henry conducted research into the issue in the 1970s and told the ABC last year that he had "concluded that it was beyond reasonable doubt that there was a population of big cats in the Grampians at that time".

"If we were able to dismiss any account by another explanation that didn't require the invention of some exotic animal, we went for that every time," Dr Henry told ABC South-West Victoria.

"At the end of that there were four eyewitness accounts that we really couldn't knock over."

Dr Henry said that the population may have survived and even spread since the 1970s.

"If there are pumas in the Grampians - and we believe there's a strong case for that - then they would have bred up, they would have then moved out into adjacent suitable habitat," he said.
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: NitroX]
      #39267 - 18/10/05 09:39 PM

HORSE SHIT !

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
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500Nitro
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39271 - 18/10/05 10:20 PM


Alan,

I bumped into the bloke at one of my dealers
about 2 - 3 months ago and saw the photos
first hand.

I'm not saying it wasn't a Puma but Mate,
ANYONE, even a Sambar hunter would keep
more than a tail if they shot a Puma.

Secondly, surely more was left of the head than
what was shown ?

500 Nitro

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Taos
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39277 - 19/10/05 03:27 AM

Sounds like a pretty long stretch as to how they were introduced to me but stranger things have happened. Not possibly a black leopard, That wouls be easier to swallow, I think. Black Mt. lions are extremely rare in our part of the world, though I have seen one in the last couple of years in Colorado but that is the only one I have ever heard of.

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RLI
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Taos]
      #39291 - 19/10/05 08:32 AM

I have heard stories of big cats in the bush for years but only creditable evidence was in the Ballarat newspaper "The Courier" a few years ago ,and the story stated that a US army unit stationed there during WW2 had a Puma as a mascot and it shows some pictures of it in Ballarat but when the unit was ordered north the pumas were taken to the Grampians and released. A women interviewed stated when she was a child she lived on a farm near the Grampians and 3 or 4 US army trucks came onto the property asking for directions to the Grampians and the soldiers showed her family not one but several pumas a adult and a few cubs since then there have been reports of pumas or big cats every so often , last one I heard of was a glider pilot spotted two pumas sunning themselves on a rock ledge in the Grampians. If the stories are true the cats would have interbred but for how long? Plenty of food Red Deer, Kangaroos, Wallabys, Wombats etc, but surely a cat would have been shot by now? but maybe never reported?

Steve

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Marty
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: RLI]
      #39306 - 19/10/05 05:57 PM

I'm not convinced by the recent photo or story, but I am also not convinced that the whole thing is out of the question.

Most folks are talking Puma's etc, and that the animal is a "cat". Couldn't it be possible that the animal is a native "Marsupial Cat", black in colour and people who see it, call it a Puma for want of anything else to describe it. Could it be a Marsupial Cat, much like we have (had) a Marsupial Dog in the Thylacine. Rare, and rarely seen, with cat like habits?

Notwithstanding that no one has come up with a body, either shot or roadkill,the trouble with these stories is that people keep seeing them. And only one person needs to be right. People have gone to the gallows on less evidence than has been presented about the Puma/Big Cat (ie multiple eyewitness accounts).

Having said that, I saw a big cat once. It was late afternoon and I would have sworn I'd seen a Puma, IF it had been black, in the bush, and not climbed out of a drain. It really looked Puma sized to me in the afternoon light. Had it been black and in the bush I would swear here that I had seen one........and I would be wrong.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39310 - 20/10/05 12:27 AM

Nigel,if they are capable of taking a photo of one of these creatures then surely they could poke a hole in it with a rifle.
25 years ago I was asked to investigate a mysterious cat that was killing livestock around the Cordering area in Western Australia.
Sheep were dieing of malnutrition,cattle were dieing of black leg,a hail storm killed a mob of lambs one night and feral pigs were always active in the area.
All deaths were blamed on the cordering cougar.
98 % of the evidence was man made by two people,which included scatts,tracks and claw marks on tree's.
They even went to the trouble of collecting fur samples from cougars at the Perth Zoo and mixing it with feeces .
Tests showed the samples had been colected at the zoo.
A clown named David O'reilly even wrote a book called
"SAVAGE SHADOW" and ran me down to dirt about my investigations.I never ever met or spoke to him.
I'm yet to meet this bag of shit face to face !
Our American members will confirm that these big cats often end up as road kill in the US ,however no carcasses have ever been produced here in aussie.
The Tantanoola Tiger turned out to be a mange ridden dog.
The Nannup tiger turned out to be a sheep painted with stockholm tar.
So once again I repeat what I said earlier.
"HORSE SHIT "

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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EricD
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39444 - 21/10/05 05:40 PM

In reply to:

I'm not saying it wasn't a Puma but Mate,
ANYONE, even a Sambar hunter would keep
more than a tail if they shot a Puma.

Secondly, surely more was left of the head than
what was shown ?





I don't get it. Was there a picture of only it's tail and a small part of it's head? Where's the body?

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Alpine_Hunter
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Reged: 30/08/05
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: NitroX]
      #39505 - 22/10/05 12:05 PM

The body was 'thrown in the river'. He only kept the skun out tail. And took some dodgy looking photos with weird perspectives.

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velodog
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Alpine_Hunter]
      #39521 - 22/10/05 04:36 PM

I saw a cat about 15 years ago ,on my parents cattle property .I saw it twice in the same place, when i was going through a gate ,it definately wasnt a puma but unlike any cat i had seen before ,i never thought of shooting it at the time, as i was too busy wondering what the heck it was !! it was brown and as big or slightly bigger than a blue cattle dog,and solidly built .It didnt run like a domestic cat, but rather trotted along ,i cant imagine it ''running something down'' like a greyhound would .More like an animal that stalked its prey .The one thing i noticed it never stopped to look back like a domestic cat might, it just kept going and going until it reached the bush ,and then disappeared.In the book'' Bunyips and bigfoots '' by Malcolm Smith ,their is reference to animals like this .Ion Idriess refers to it, and it seemed common knowledge years ago, that these cats existed [to people in North Queensland ]

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: velodog]
      #39549 - 23/10/05 12:05 AM

Sounds like to much fermented sugar cane to me !

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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velodog
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39564 - 23/10/05 04:54 AM

Maybe its the Cougar Bourbon !

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EricD
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Alpine_Hunter]
      #39851 - 27/10/05 06:42 AM

In reply to:

The body was 'thrown in the river'. He only kept the skun out tail. And took some dodgy looking photos with weird perspectives.



So he shots a near mythical creature, and dumps the body/evidence in the river...

Sniff sniff. Smells like the guy is full of shit and just wanted publicity.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: EricD]
      #40507 - 03/11/05 02:32 PM

Is this the one ?


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"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Marrakai
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #40510 - 03/11/05 07:31 PM

Well, now that we've all seen the photos (including the front cover of the Comic Book) we all KNOW its a crock of sh!t.

Hang up a moggie with a shredded head on strings, then place the shooter about 10 metres behind, pretending to look at the cat on a level plane. Doesn't even get that right!

I can't believe the SSAA gave those photos any credibility whatsoever, its a huge insult to our collective intelligence. Every Joe Public who walks into a newsagency for the next month is going to be thinking what a bunch of bloody wankers shooters are! Thanks for that, SSAA!

...and we're supposed to believe that a 7mm completely shredded the head and shoulders of a cougar-sized animal? Oh, please!

Normally I'm prepared to give the benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise, but those photos are so poor as to not even carry off a successful hoax. Very bad form indeed!

For the benefit of overseas posters, here's the photo in question. Are we really expected to believe its a black panther? Geez!

The photo is credited to Kurt Engel, published in the Australian Shooter Magazine Nov.2005, p.63.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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Bushie
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Marrakai]
      #40512 - 03/11/05 08:25 PM

Looks like that Panther copped about 3 in the head from a .50 BMG to me .
Mind you I reckon my 7mm would do that to a pussy cat .

Edited by Bushie (03/11/05 08:27 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Bushie]
      #40516 - 03/11/05 11:23 PM


Bushie

I actually spoke to Kurt and saw the photos
3 - 4 months ago. I am not convinced.

I'll try to find the photo of a Suicide bomber
shot in the forehead with a 50 cal.

Surprisingly it didn't blow it apart but made
a V as t went through. I think a bit lower
and the result would have been the same
as a pumpkin being hit by a bullet.

Even so, that's a lot of damage for a 7mm.

500 Nitro

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #40517 - 03/11/05 11:32 PM

Tried to post this pic this morning but for some reason didnt work.
Notice the hind quarters on the cat in the first pic look a lot like a roo.


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Bushie
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #40525 - 04/11/05 01:24 AM

.500 Nitro ,
Yeah I've seen the picture and that's what I was referring to in my post . Don't post it here please . Not pretty and not in good taste .

Reckon that level of damage is about what could be expected if you shot a feral cat (facing you)in the head with a 7mm magnum .

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500Nitro
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Bushie]
      #40540 - 04/11/05 03:57 AM


Bushie

Don't worry, I wouldn't post that photo on this forum.

500 Nitro

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Bushie
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: 500Nitro]
      #40621 - 04/11/05 11:58 PM

At the risk of stirring up Alan M I know several farmers (some very well) who claim to have seen big cats in an area about 40km from where I live .
One claims to have chased a pair of puma - sized , gold coloured cats across a paddock with his quad bike in broad daylight in 1995 and says he got within 15 metres before they leapt over a fence and escaped into the bush . He is not the type of guy who appreciates undue attention .
Another middle aged farmer's wife (and her 2 grandsons) that I know quite well also claims to have seen a big cat in broad daylight . She is quite religious and one of the last people I would expect to invent this type of story .
Another farmer friend recently bought a high powered rifle the morning after seeing a large cat stalking a mob of sheep only a few hundred metres from his house .
These are 3 of about 10 reports that I am aware of that come from an area within about 10km of a quite large nature reserve . None of them have made it to the press as those involved haven't wanted to be labelled as kooks .
Some interesting stuff on Google if you do a search on big cats under pages from Australia .
I have little doubt that there are numerous false reports of big cat sightings but am keeping an open mind at this point .

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Bushie]
      #40704 - 05/11/05 12:33 PM

And I'll bet all the sightings were between seeding and harvest time.

Show me a fresh carcase and I to will be a believer however untill then..........HORSE SHIT .............

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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rgp
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Marrakai]
      #40725 - 05/11/05 03:52 PM

That thing in the comic book cover photo Marrakai posted doesn't even look like a cougar...the tail looks much too thick like a kangaroo as another poster mentioned....and those dinky front legs look a lot more like a roo's front legs...to me it looks like roo roadkill that had it's head run over by a truck and was later picked up and dyed black. The visible meat looks as dark as roo meat, which is darker than one would expect on a cat. Also according to a number of wildlife biologists, cougars (aka panthers or mountain lions) don't have the genetics to allow solid black. My understanding is that the only verified large black cats of North American origin never occurred farther north than South Texas.

Of the two cougars I've seen in my life (both in the USA), one was under the shade of a tree and I thought he was as black as black can be. He saw me and ran, once he was in the sunlight it was obvious that he was tan or golden in color instead.

Here is some more information, the Jaguarundi link is to the "black panther":
Mountain Lion
Jaguarundi

Richard

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Photos
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: rgp]
      #40924 - 08/11/05 05:42 AM

Newspaper clippings from the "Sunday Sun", Melbourne, supplied by a member.








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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Shooter says he bagged 'urban legend' puma [Re: Marrakai]
      #40978 - 08/11/05 03:22 PM

Looking through some old photo's I have ,and guess what I found. ?
A litter mate to the one on the front cover of that BULLSHIT MAGAZINE printed by ssaa.
The only difference is that this one died of a Texas heart shot.
A couple of more pics to follow.
They sure do gro big down under especially after half a bottle of shine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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