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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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Rikkn
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Reged: 24/04/23
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Loc: United States
Maker I.D. Needed
      #389072 - 23/01/25 01:12 AM

A comment by Huvius on an older Gunboards posting by me has made me look at this one again.... I bought this a couple years ago, Put it on the wall and kind of forget about it until he commented. Barrel is by E.J.Churchill. .470 nitro caliber. Farquharson action. Is there any way to identify the maker ?

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Rikkn
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Reged: 24/04/23
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389073 - 23/01/25 01:13 AM

Pictures didn't post..... I will have to figure this out.

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HuviusModerator
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3573
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389074 - 23/01/25 01:23 AM

The action is very likely made in Belgium and if you remove the forend, it may be stamped PD on the front which most take as a “Public Domain” stamp indicating that the action patent had run it’s course.
Usually, the many retailers simply engraved their name and address on the barrels with not much else to differentiate one from another. Sometimes sights, sling eyes and some stockwork were executed in a house style but often just add a name and out the door it seems.
I’ll go back to the books on these Farquharsons to look for specifics.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Rikkn
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Huvius]
      #389075 - 23/01/25 01:41 AM

This is the link to the Gunboards posting with pictures.

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/farquharson-470-rifle.1240735/?post_id=11497498#post-11497498

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389076 - 23/01/25 02:39 AM

Looking at those photos again, I’d say this rifle was finished by Webley for Churchill.
No mention of Churchill as a retailer in the books but that’s not surprising as I’d think they didn’t sell that many and weren’t known for making many rifles. In fact, the only Churchill rifles I’m familiar with are the Mauser ‘98s made much later than this Farquharson and the Churchill “1 of 1000” Mausers which are also much later. These may not even be all that closely associated with E.J. Churchill - I don’t know the story on all that.
The barrel inscription looks a little hurried in execution but who knows…. You still got a very good deal on that rifle!

BTW, welcome to NitroExpress!! Lots of information and good folks over here.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Rikkn
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Huvius]
      #389077 - 23/01/25 02:51 AM

It does look like a Webley pattern engraving. Just found a picture of one on GI. Any suggestions on getting this one cleaned / brightened up a little ?

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lancaster
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389078 - 23/01/25 05:18 AM





























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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TH44
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: lancaster]
      #389079 - 23/01/25 06:11 AM

Plus one for Huvius' comments

I have one in .450/400 3 1/4" Nitro made by Thomas Turner with Krupp steel barrels
Thomas Turner made many/quite a few?? of these Farquharsons but agree wuth Huvius about Phillip Webley

Without telling you how to suck eggs, these rifles are not that heavy and wuth a .470 full Nitro load
recoil may be a little "stout"

Good luck shooting it, you certainly got a bargain (nice engraving) you would pay a lot more here in the UK

TH

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93x64mm
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: TH44]
      #389080 - 23/01/25 06:35 AM

Lovely piece all over indeed Rikkn!
Would be nice to see what load you come up with to shoot to your sights.
Lucky bugger, more than a few of us envious of you!

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Hunter4752001
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: 93x64mm]
      #389083 - 23/01/25 10:52 AM

John please delete this entry if it contravenes NitroExpress policy.



There is a nice potted history of EJ Churhill at https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=488100 Worth reading for those interested in the history of the gun maker and his products.

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Rikkn
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #389084 - 23/01/25 12:43 PM

Great info guys !! Now I just might have to keep it... Where would be a good place to send it to have it cleaned up some. I was thinking Turnbull, Any other suggestions?

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CM76
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389085 - 23/01/25 06:54 PM

Nice rifle Rikkn, congratulations

Chris

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degoins
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: CM76]
      #389088 - 24/01/25 12:59 AM

Very nice....congrats and thanks for sharing!

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389089 - 24/01/25 02:28 AM

Quote:

Great info guys !! Now I just might have to keep it... Where would be a good place to send it to have it cleaned up some. I was thinking Turnbull, Any other suggestions?



Send it to Steve Bertram for a good clean and service.
That's all it needs.
DO NOT have Turnbull touch this rifle.

Edit: Sounds a bit harsh I guess, so I’ll explain myself.

Turnbull does a very nice job restoring and coloring American firearms - has that process down pat.
British guns aren’t their bread and butter work and I think (as many other collectors I talk to) they just don’t achieve the British style in color case hardening and they end up a bit too garish when done.
As a long time collector of UK single shot rifles, this particular rifle is, in my opinion, a good example of a well used but not abused, proper dangerous game Farquharson.
The original condition and surviving colors make me think that a good strip and clean including a function check, as these Farqs do have a couple areas which can be a little problematic, is all that is needed to get her looking good and functioning as she should.
I’m guilty of having a coupe British rifles fully restored but they were true project/parts guns.
A good original example is not all that easy to come by these days and yours is certainly a good one.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (24/01/25 04:04 AM)

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Rikkn
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Huvius]
      #389092 - 24/01/25 08:43 AM

This rifle was purchased by George Eastman ( Eastman Kodak ) for his best friend and company President Dr. Albert Chapman so he could go on Safari with him. Actually planned on trading or selling it off at some point, but would like to keep it if it could be brightened up a little. Any value estimations ?

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Rikkn]
      #389094 - 24/01/25 12:01 PM

The provenance would need to have some pretty solid evidence to affect the value.
Can Churchill verify the Eastman connection?
Remember, most fine rifles of the era were made for someone in particular - bespoke so to speak - and they were all “somebody’s” for the most part.
The ledgers from the big name makers read like a “who’s who” of industry and society.

That said, the big bore single shot market is a funny thing unto itself.
All of the things we see as attributes in a double, adding value, don’t always translate to single shots. Some do of course such as engraving over a plain example. Take downs are always popular and more lately, chamberings which are easy to source and easy on the shoulder (singles being lighter generally) make for an easier sale.
303s are pretty hot right now checking those two boxes in particular although the absolutely correct 215gr bullets of the day are a little scarce.
Average condition big bores seem to sit on the market (at retail) for quite a while. I know firsthand how that is having offered a couple of mine to later decide to keep them instead of sitting on the market.
Your rifle is better than average - average in a used Farquharson or other British falling block can be pretty rough actually.
Being a 470, this rifle is probably easier to feed than most other “big bores” other than maybe a 450-400 3” except that I would guess that only 500gr bullets are available which makes it a challenge to load down as one can with a 450. Full boat loads in any of these big singles wears thin pretty quickly.
470s are not common though as that chambering came in about the same time as the economical single shot rifle was overtaken by the availability of inexpensive, reliable bot actions.
Super cool rifle though, that’s for sure.
One I would like to have too!! LOL!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1479
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: Huvius]
      #389110 - 25/01/25 03:36 AM

+1 what Ben said.

One observation:
"if" you cast bullets there are lots of options for lighter bullets that work well in a .470 and a single shot is easy to load for.
As well, there are light(er) bullets in .475 diameter that are meant for the handguns. Great for plinking, varmints, and general practice.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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85lc
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Re: Maker I.D. Needed [Re: 3DogMike]
      #389112 - 25/01/25 05:14 AM

I believe the action and perhaps the entire rifle was manufactured under contract to Francotte and then sold to one of the English "gun makers."

Gibbs made a true Farquharson action. Francotte did some minor reengineering of the action and had them produced by one of its subcontractors (I forgot their name). These were sold as either action, barreled actions or complete rifles. This was fairly common in the British gun trade; ie, buying rifles manufactured by true manufacturers like Webley or Francotte, and marking the completed rifle with the seller's name (like Holland. etc).

I have two Jeffery marked rifles. I have read that most, but nor all, Francotte actions are marked with a PD. One of my rifles is marked ID and the other is not marked. The ID apparently is from a worn or damaged PD stamp. My two rifles may have been sent over in the white and engraved + finished by Jeffery who did not make any gun.

I havbe seen other "Farquharson" rifles that look identical to my Jeffery rifles.

Now all that being said, the Farquharson style rifles made for Francotte are wonderful rifles.

--------------------
RB

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