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buckstix
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An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle
      #388795 - 11/01/25 05:36 PM

An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle

I am always attracted to unusual and unique double rifles, and this one sure fits the bill. This Collath, like the Dreyse 11mm I posted earlier, also comes from Europe. The high grade features of this Collath double rifle would indicates it must have been made for a customer that could afford the very best.

I will have this double rifle in hand some time next week and I will post additional pictures then. In the mean time, the following pictures came from the seller's post. Searching the internet shows several Collath SxS shotguns and drillings, but this was the only double rifle found. The fact that its 24 gauge will make loading and regulation a challenge. The bore size of a 24 gauge shotgun is 0.579 inches in diameter. A paradox style bullet mold will be ordered for 24 gauge, and a regulating load will be developed.

This Collath's function is is very interesting. When the under-lever beneath the forearm is rotated, a cam pulls the barrel assembly forward. From this forward position, the barrels can be tipped down for loading, just like a conventional break-action double.
(like this link shows) [not my rifle] https://i697.photobucket.com/a...sidejoseDSCN0777.jpg

Any additional information about W. Collath, and your comments, are most welcome.

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/COLLATH-00.jpg



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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388798 - 11/01/25 09:27 PM

Hello

I had this double rifle on the screen <a href="beforehttp://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=birdhunting&Number=245837&page=0&fpart=11" target="_blank">beforehttp://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=birdhunting&Number=245837&page=0&fpart=11</a>

it appear on gun international in 12/2023.
you post a wrong pic, this is not your rifle



your rifle must be this one











the rifle have the german V+crown "proof" from early 1893. I am curious about the serial number!
It was allready out of fashion in 1893 when most hunter have some 11 mm caliber and the 8 mm nitro rifle came on the market first time.
I am await the common 24 ga brass cut to 40 mm length but other case lengths are also possible.
40 mm was the most common together with the so called cats head bullet.

blackpowder only!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388800 - 11/01/25 10:50 PM

Quote:

Hello

I had this double rifle on the screen it appear on gun international in 12/2023.
you post a wrong pic, this is not your rifle ..... the rifle have the German V+crown "proof" from early 1893. I am curious about the serial number!
It was already out of fashion in 1893 when most hunter have some 11 mm caliber and the 8 mm nitro rifle came on the market first time.
I am await the common 24 ga brass cut to 40 mm length but other case lengths are also possible.
40 mm was the most common together with the so called cats head bullet.

blackpowder only!


Hello lancaster,
Yes, that picture is not my rifle. I found the picture while searching and used it only to show the "break-action" feature of the Collath rifle. I am anxious to get the rifle in hand to do a chamber cast to identify the exact caliber. Please explain "cats head bullet".

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388808 - 12/01/25 01:44 AM

the "Katzenkopfgeschoß" a short, fat lead bullet with 2 or 3 grease grooves and a round tip that was used in german -austrian made hunting rifles where the case or shell was a pinfire or centerfire shotgun caliber. you see alot of such guns here http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=251424&an=0&page=0#Post251424

common lenght was 40 mm but you find allso 30 mm, 33 mm or long 65 mm cases. this startet in the early 1860s and was more or less outdated in the beginning of the 1890s.

RWS bullet catalog around 1900





bullets for lancaster(centerfire) and lefaucheux(pinfire) cases

notice: Führung ( this is the upper ring) having the same diameter ( barrel groove diameter)for Messinghülse(shotgun brass) and Papphülse (paper shell). here for 24 ga 15,80 mm.

Caliber is the diameter of the lower two rings, different for brass with 15,70 mm and 15,05 mm for paper shells.
the cats head is very heavy with 33 gramm and only 18,7 mm short
the bullet is to load into the case so the upper ring touch the case mouth. powder load is maybe between 60 and 80 grains blackpowder. if you have a .620 roundball mould it would be a start to bring the double to the range.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Marrakai
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388851 - 13/01/25 09:54 AM

cats or cast...?

--------------------
Marrakai
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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #388852 - 13/01/25 10:29 AM

Katzenkopfgeschoß translates to "cat head bullet"

--------------------
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Marrakai
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388860 - 13/01/25 03:17 PM

Live and learn.

Where are the whiskers...?

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Marrakai
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--------------------------------
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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #388943 - 17/01/25 03:28 PM

Hello ... I got the double rifle in hand today. Its in spectacular condition. But, now I'm really confused as to the caliber. I guess the "CAL 3 24" marking must stand for 3" 24 gauge ? But the chamber cast is identical to 600 NE, except with a thinner and smaller dia rim. Perhaps a 600 bpe?


any suggestions?

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/24ga-cast-000.jpg



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Marrakai
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388944 - 17/01/25 05:14 PM

Quote:

Perhaps a 600 bpe?




There wasn't one...

...it was the 20-bore BP rifle cartridge, brass case!

If it chamber-casts .600 NE then groove diameter might be .615 to .620?

24-bore should be groove diameter .577 to .580

Not much help, sorry.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #388948 - 17/01/25 09:06 PM

Quote:

There wasn't one...

...it was the 20-bore BP rifle cartridge, brass case!

If it chamber-casts .600 NE then groove diameter might be .615 to .620?

24-bore should be groove diameter .577 to .580

Not much help, sorry.

I know that. Per my chamber cast above - groove is 597"

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388950 - 17/01/25 11:13 PM

naa, your guys have to leave your little word and get a bigger picture.
you probably know that chuck norris once made a mistake? it was when he thought he was wrong!

well, I was wrong believing the article description when knowing they are wrong most of the time when it comes to antique guns. without having the time and the space to show the teschner cartridges evolution from 1859 onwards simply saying:

this is a Teschner-Collath Cal. No. 3 rifled gun

it having nothing to do with 600 NE or such crap because it originated in 1859

here is the only No. 3 shell I have at home

the green paper shell



not the nicest but you get the picture



Teschner Collath shotgun shells have nothing to do with Lancaster caliber but you find a basic case.
the green paper shell is the No.3 , then comes 16 ga Magtech, 0,70" v. Dreyse and a 20 ga magtech resized to fit the Dreyse chamber.

you see here a home made die, very simply just to reduze the 20 ga diameter so it fits into the dreyse chamber.







what would I do? 16 ga is the closest
No. 3 rim 20,75 mm
base 19,48mm

body 18,10 - 18,20mm

you see over 15 mm the diamater goes at the base down from 19,48 to 18,20mm

16ga Magtech rim 20,44mm
base 18,76mm
mouth 18,45 mm

with only the rim and base in the water aneal anything of the magtech brass. made a die with 18,15 mm inside. you see mine its only 20 mm long inside to reduce friction.
dont use a shell holder, it will not work. I have a simple plain shell holder for such work where the case stands on. lube the anealed brass and pressed carefully into the die. you have to find out how much is neccessary to get it into the chamber. it will be looking similar to my 0,70" /20 ga.
remove the brass with a fitting steel tube and a hammer out of the die.
its a blackpowder gun, I would not use other than this. with blackpowder pressure I think the base a little bit undersize is ok. show a chamber cast, could be the brass is to cut down.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: Marrakai]
      #388951 - 17/01/25 11:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps a 600 bpe?




There wasn't one...

...it was the 20-bore BP rifle cartridge, brass case!

If it chamber-casts .600 NE then groove diameter might be .615 to .620?

24-bore should be groove diameter .577 to .580

Not much help, sorry.



listen and learn

german combination guns have the rifle barrel right, british combination guns have the rifle barrel left so they make it many times different.

british bore rifles have the shotgun caliber as groove diameter so maybe .577 -.580 bullet

BUT

german bore rifes have the shotgun caliber as lands diameter so .620 bullet

THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

if the Teschner Collath have a .597 groove diameter I would say .600 is fine

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388953 - 18/01/25 12:25 AM

Hello lancster,

Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate your knowledge, and help.

I didn't want to imply that there was such a cartridge as a 600 bpe ... just so happens a 600 case fit. .... sorry ..

I have now shown a picture that the shows that a modern 3" 20ga shell fits perfectly into this rifle's chamber. The Magtech 20ga brass case also fits perfectly. I'm wondering if it would be safe to shoot modern 20ga slugs in this gun, or should I work up a load using the 20ga Magtech brass.

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/24GA-20GA-DR.jpg



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388954 - 18/01/25 01:42 AM

sorry, can't open your link here.
the 20 ga will have a lot of space around the base, or not?
a little bit to much for me. is the 20 ga rim´diameter enough to get a grip by the extractor?
imho, any lead bullet under .600 will be safe in this barrels

I would like to see a chamber cast

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388955 - 18/01/25 01:56 AM

Hello lanchaster,

My photos show a chamber cast with dimensions. The 20ga factory shell and the Magtech 20ga brass shell are both a perfect "slip-fit" into the chambers, and the rim dia is also perfect. Would you know the bullet weight and velocity of the No.3 cartridge? Also, what is the meaning of the 24 that is engraved as the caliber. It is engraved "Cal. 3 24"

I have sent you a PM.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #388958 - 18/01/25 03:19 AM

please post the chmaber cast here

no. 3 is a shotgun cartridge loaded with blackpowder, your rifle is unique

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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CJF
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388960 - 18/01/25 04:47 AM

Buckstix, if you're interested in larger bore double rifles, Cabelas has a Johann Springer listed for under $4K that's described as 63 caliber.

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/101608729



Edited by CJF (18/01/25 04:48 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #388961 - 18/01/25 04:53 AM



ok, got it



this is not a Tesco No. 3, it looks indeed like 20 ga




I have seen this style of caliber engraving on collath guns when it had two different barrel sets - so No. 3 shotgun barrels + 24 ga rifled barrels. but it could be also the No. 3 shotgun barrels were taken of and replace by 24 ga rifled barrels maybe because the shotgun barrels were damage.
such things could happen - with snow in the barrels for example and the owner give the guns to the factory and they made him new barrels.
problem is the camber don't look like 24 ga but like 70 mm long 20 ga. I suspect the 24 ga is very undersize in this chamber?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: CJF]
      #388965 - 18/01/25 06:01 AM

Quote:

Buckstix, if you're interested in larger bore double rifles, Cabelas has a Johann Springer listed for under $4K that's described as 63 caliber.

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/101608729



Thanks for the "heads-up" on the Springer, but I already have several big-bore double rifles. Including; 700 NE, 600 NE, (2) 20 bore, (3) 577 bpe, (2)577-500 No.2 ex, 500 NE, 475 No.2 NE, 500-450 NE, and others.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #389003 - 20/01/25 01:51 AM

buckstix, I don't sleep so well when thinking you feed the old collath with 20 ga plastic shells. here is one method I learn from an 1865 german hunting magazine once.
you have a very long cone between case mouth and rifling and the 20 ga is probably to big inside for the .597 bullet you need. there is a simple way to extend the magtech brass that is even bigger in diameter inside than plastic shells.







take a piece of paper of the case length you want in the end. the paper thickness and the caliber you wish to have in the end definite the width. its try and error until you have it.



coil the paper around a thinner tube





insert the paper roll into the brass case and remove the tube



the paper roll have some tension and will open up until it fits the brass case inside





its ready now, you can load the case as is. I would dip the paper in fluid wax carefully until the brass case mouth. this will also glue the paper to the brass. enough the case will be safe to handle. load with blackpowder, a wad and then glue the bullet also with hot, fluid wax into the case

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #389047 - 22/01/25 06:56 AM

hello lancaster,

Do you use the 600NE brass, or the 20ga brass for your paper tube method?

--------------------
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