Hoot
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Reged: 25/01/17
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Loc: MN
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An unusual '95 to be sure. Also, some 'false starts' in the early posts but I think they got it correct in that it needs an insert...or 5?
Thanks for any insight.
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/chambe...8#post-11466138
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DarylS
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Makes sense that it is chambered in .22 HP.
5.6mm is .221(.2205") that is a tight groove dia. if true
The .22 HP usually has a .228" groove dia. That's 5.79mm.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
Edited by DarylS (23/12/24 02:30 AM)
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lancaster
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the rifle looks complete period austrain made between the wars, do doubt
the original barrel was drilled out and a liner was soft soldered, imho this exclude any high power .22 caliber center fire cartridge. the austrian proof house would have never accept this. the rifle looks like a proper hunting rifle, a 22 lr conversion for hunting makes no sense. other small 22 lr bolt actions were cheap and easy to get then. someone make a target practise rifle here maybe for indoor shooting. I can forward your data to Josef Mötz in Austria who is an expert for such things
but you know the christmas days starting tomorrow and nothing will happen before new years days.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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Hoot
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Reged: 25/01/17
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Thank you Lancaster. I appreciate your input and help.
I really like the rifle overall but the insert/liner business has me hesitating. If it isn't something a fellow can work with, it seems like it would be more trouble to make things "right".
Cheers and Merry Christmas!
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lancaster
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its my pleasure but remember we have christmas eve, today starts the most important feast for anymone speaking german and we probably don't reach anyone before new years day 25.
your observation that there is a bulge near the muzzle and this was the reason makes sense. precesion became maybe hopeless so it was the only way.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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Hoot
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Daryl, I appreciate your input as well. The .22 Savage seems to present some dimensional issues...Lancaster's proof comments aside. Maybe a better match would be the 5.6x52R Magnum? Not at all sure that makes sense either.
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lancaster
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I can't see a .22 high power cartridge in this conversion. the barrel is also to small for another cartridge.
the barrel have a .220 groove diameter like .22lr, 22 Mag is .222, most .22 centerfire cartridges have a .224 caliber.
no doubt it was a adapter for .22 lr cartridges.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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DarylS
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OK- the chamber cast is in the original thread. It has a 12.6MM base diameter and a 12.16mm shoulder. That's .496" base and .479" shoulder.
Those measurements are WAY larger than a .22 HP.
Back at the turn of the century, .22 cal barrels were .223" at MOST.
The .22 Savage was an anomaly with it's .228" bullet. Seems to me, the .22 WCF was also .228" but when Townsend Whelen and ?? brought it out as a smokeless powder ctg. it became the .22 Hornet with a .223" bullet, same as the later, original .220 Swift.
I just measured 4, .45/70 cases(for my lever actioned elephant rifle) on my loading bench and every one was .497" just ahead of the rim.
This should be the image link.Link doesn't work, but - the chamber case is in the article. by the looks of it(the case mouth and neck length), it is a holder for a .22 RF ctg.
https://www.gunboards.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/steyr-15-jpg.4279148/
Meant for something like this?
https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/img_3433-gif.4279880/
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Hoot
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Daryl, that's about what I had in my head. I was too distracted (read: lazy) to investigate all of the dimensions but I assumed the bulk of the chamber was sized for the original 8x50R in order to use the original en bloc clips and bolt head with whatever 22 caliber cartridge was intended. As Lancaster points out, the .220 groove does lead to the rimfire. That would require a different firing pin or offset chamber. Either way, it's an odd pairing what with the rest of the rifle.
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lancaster
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the firing pin is no problem, Lothar Walther ( one member of the Walther family) made such inserts for the 22 lr rimfire
look here, it shoots 22 lr in a .357 mag revolver
https://www.tactical-dad.com/waffen/scharfe-waffen/einsteckl%C3%A4ufe-reduziersysteme/
you have a adapter cartridge with the dimensions of a 357 mag cartridge. between the rimfire cartridge and the breech is a firing pin adapter - rear end center fire, front end rimfire
I said it before, there was the 22 lr with center fire primer available between the wars. it was a 22 lr with an anvil inside like a boxer primer, works both ways rimfire and centerfire.
its not a good idea to have the 22 lr at the rear end because the bullet have a long way until it touch the rifling.
made a rough draft of the adapter you need, you recognice the .22 lr cartridge there?
take the measurments from your chamber cast and reduce by 0,1 mm, lathe turn the insert from steel.
make the firing pin from somewhat better steel quality so it don't wear off so quickly. you have to file the rimfire pin on the front end by hand. drill a little hole for the center fire fring pin on the rear end. I would lighten the firing pin on the lathe, you need the full diameter only on the ends.
the best way is an adapter like the one for the 7,5 Mas show here
the 22 lr cartridge protruding so the case mouth is in the barrel. this works as a gas seal similar to a Nagant revolver.
btw, never try to snap the extractor of the Mannlicher M 95 over a rim when the case is in the chamber. it will probably break what you don't want.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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DarylS
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Yes they do.
I did that with a .375/.350Rem Mag (.350 case) wildcat I had barreled up on a like-new Steyr action I had. The broken extractor really bummed me out.
I was running 270gr. RN's at 2,200fps. It was a neat rifle & shot well - for a while. I lost interest with the broken extractor.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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lancaster
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hello
have an answer from Josef Mötz "The weapon is certainly a unique piece by a gunsmith."
he had not seen anything like this before and thats means something. in the interwar years the austrian army use the Erma EL24 .22 lr conversion kit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydPVasq2t_Y&t=12s
before the war the old K.u.K. army was using the "Kapselschießeinrichtung" ( very hard to translate)
for short range and also indoor shooting practise.
and hard to find pics also, it was an insert, lathe turned from solid brass with a propelling charge looking like a big primer ( the Kapsel) and a 8 mm lead bullet bullet with a hollow base you set on the tip of the insert with a special pliers.
http://old.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
"Reusable reduced shot cartridge for training. Instead of a piston, a small 4.5x9 mm HP adaptor blank cartridge is inserted and a lead bullet of very small size and weight is manually inserted. It can be used in the ordinary gun without any modification. PHOTO: TONY"
your rifle is from the technical point of view half way between the old kapselschießeinrichtung and the newer .22 conversion kit.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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Hoot
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Reged: 25/01/17
Posts: 100
Loc: MN
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Thank you Lancaster. That is very interesting. I should note the rifle is not mine but it is available and I am considering it.
The remainder of the layout still seems at odds with the bore. The double set triggers, the pop-up diopter/peep, to me, point to a hunting or sporting rifle. Not that one can't hunt with the .22LR.
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lancaster
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before the rifle was changed it was a common hunting rifle in 8x50R and so the peep sight. I think the orignal barrel became beyond any repair after geting the bulge near the muzzle. imho, the conversion was made between the wars when original barrels for a replacement were available without problems.
we will never know why the owner make the decision for the .22 lr conversion. just keep in mind that a gunmaker hour was not very expensive in this days. nobody whould do this with 2024 prices.
it will be no rocket science to make 5 -10 inserts to shoot 22lr on a lathe. a british enfield conversion for the little .230 morris center fire cartridge would make more work than this.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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Igorrock
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Loc: Finland
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After WWII some finnish competition shooters converted m/95 Steyr for 7,62x53R. They used it for running moose target double shot competition. Year 1952 Olympics in Helsinki finnish Tauno V. Mäki shot bronze medal with his m/95 Steyr.
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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/
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lancaster
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I would like to see pics if you can find them Igorrock.
iirc, the russian did the same with old ww1 canadian ross rifles for running deer competition. could be this rifles were chambered in 6,5x54R Mosin.
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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians
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Igorrock
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Quote:
I would like to see pics if you can find them Igorrock.
I would think none of them exists anymore. Haven´t ever seen any by myself but I read a biography of Tauno V. Mäki and it told a story where Steyr rifles mentioned. Mr Mäki was an avid hunter and he owned one Mannlicher Schönauer too.
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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/
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Rothhammer1
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Loc: The Redwoods of California
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Quote:
before the war the old K.u.K. army was using the "Kapselschießeinrichtung" ( very hard to translate)
for short range and also indoor shooting practise.
and hard to find pics also, it was an insert, lathe turned from solid brass with a propelling charge looking like a big primer ( the Kapsel) and a 8 mm lead bullet bullet with a hollow base you set on the tip of the insert with a special pliers.
http://old.municion.org/8mann/8mann.htm
"Reusable reduced shot cartridge for training. Instead of a piston, a small 4.5x9 mm HP adaptor blank cartridge is inserted and a lead bullet of very small size and weight is manually inserted. It can be used in the ordinary gun without any modification. PHOTO: TONY"
Rather reminiscent of these, from 1939 Stoeger catalog:
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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation
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Hoot
.300 member
Reged: 25/01/17
Posts: 100
Loc: MN
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Well, the deed is done. As soon as my FFL receives it, the rifle in question will become mine. Not completely sure where I'll go with it. A friend has a good '95 barrel he is willing to send me. A sporter in 8x56R wouldn't be all bad.
Anyway, thanks for all your input!
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93x64mm
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Interesting piece indeed!
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