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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CJF
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Double rifles converted to shotguns
      #388323 - 20/12/24 03:36 AM

For a while now I've been curious about English double rifles that were converted to shotguns. How did they balance? Do they have any utility as slug guns in areas where you can't use rifles for deer hunting.

So in the past year I've picked up two. One is a wreck...an early Lang hammer underlever that's now a 20ga in unshootable condition, But for under $150 US, I bought it so I could take it apart without fear that my limited skills would mar anything.

The second one is more interesting. A Webley screw grip (A&W C?) double rifle retailed by Army & Navy CSL. Originally in 500EX,, it is now also a 20 bore. I picked this one up for under $600 US off of Gunbroker a few months ago. At the time, I was following and researching another Army & Navy 500EX Webley screw grip double rifle, which I was able to buy last month. Both have 27" barrels. The older of the two was retailed in 1889 per the kind folks at the University of Glasgow. The newer, converted double, was probably sold after 1905, based on Webley's numbers on the forearm takedown lever and barrel hook (I'm comparing to the converted rifle, which has assembly number 7728 and A&N SN 27466 to my 360EX Watson Brothers screw grip, assembly number 7168.)

I'll get pictures up of the 500EX rifles/shotguns soon. In the meantime, the key thing I observed, beyond boring out the barrels and removing the sights and barrel sling eye, was that the barrels lost 1.5lbs in the process. Total weight of the shotgun is 6.84lbs vs 8.42lbs for the 500EX rifle. The actions/stocks of both weighed 2.9lbs.

Anyone have a converted rifle they enjoy using as a shotgun? Anyone test one with slugs?

Regards,
Chris

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388324 - 20/12/24 03:41 AM

This first pics shows all 3 rifles/former rifles:

At top is the 20bore A&N CSL sn 27466, 27.25" barrels weighing 3.54lbs, total weight 6.84lbs
Middle is a 500EX (BPE) A&N CSL sn 8948, 27.125" barrels weighing 5.06lbs, total weight 8.42lbs
Bottom is a 360EX (BPE) Watson Bros with 26" barrels weighing 4.02lbs, total weight 6.94lbs

[image]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ef477c67-1177-4902-ac5a-0357556b39c6/8859e768-f9da-4fc5-943f-a8fdb04a8ea9.jpeg[/image]

(I'll have to resize my pics to post...sorry)

Edited by CJF (20/12/24 05:19 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388330 - 21/12/24 12:19 AM

https://hosting.photobucket.com/ef477c67...fdb04a8ea9.jpeg

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #388331 - 21/12/24 02:47 AM

Thanks John

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85lc
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388332 - 21/12/24 05:15 AM

Chris,

This is a very nioce writeup. I have not considered shotguns converted from DR. as interested in the weight lost in reboring the rifled barrels to shotgun barrels. would assume the largest bore gun would be a 20 bore.

As an aside, I asked Westley Richards if they could make a set of shotgun barrels for a Westley Richards 500/450 #1 double rifle as I thought that a 20 bore barrels would be a great addition for my WR double rifle. Unfortunately Westley Richards declined, saying they were not taking on any gunmaking work. Actually, that was probably fortunately as I probly could not afford their work.

Now back to your new shotguns. Are they choke bored? If not, you might be able to shoot slugs in them but is choked and fairly thin, you might damage the barrels i=by shooting slugs.

One opytion is to get a set of rifled inserts like the ones that Krieghoff made in 22LR and 22Mag. I have seen several in 12 and 16 bore and only a few in 20 bore but of found, that would make a neat light double rifle.

Even if you don't find any inserts, having a light 20 ga vintage shotgun would be a neat quail gun.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: 85lc]
      #388334 - 21/12/24 06:44 AM

Hi Roy,

The Army Navy screw grip is choke bored. The barrels are fairly stout, even after its diet. I probably will risk slugs in the gun even with the chokes, at least for a few rounds, to see how it does. It's not poorly balanced, but it is also not the prettiest 20ga in the safe, so if it doesn't shoot slugs, it probably will go on down the road next time I consign guns for sale.

Here's a view of all 3...left to right the converted gun, my new 500BPE and the 360BPE from 2023.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/ef477c67...de2316497c.jpeg



Edited by CJF (21/12/24 06:56 AM)

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85lc
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388336 - 21/12/24 08:05 AM

Chris,

At one time, someone talked about rifling the choke on a shotgun. I don't remember much of the discussion but if there is anyone who could rifle the choke and convert your shotgun into a paradox, that could be interesting.

Another option (and perhaps less expensive) would be to ream out the choke and install choke tubes flush with the muzzle which would allow you to install a rifled choke (or any other choke).

I installed a rifle choke on my Beretta A400 and was surprised how accurate it was.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: 85lc]
      #388337 - 21/12/24 09:32 AM

I didn't know they made rifled choke tubes. That's really intriguing

Edited by CJF (21/12/24 01:48 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388338 - 21/12/24 02:08 PM

At first I thought I'd never heard of a double rifle made into a shotgun. Usually the other way round. But of course some DRs have had shotgun barrels made as additional barrels for them.

Then I remembered a "cape gun" owned by South Aussie elephant hunter John Dawkins. A Holland & Holland .450 NE side by side, one barrel bored out to .410 I think it was (?). I wonder why one barrel was bored out smooth? Damaged in some way? And converted. One day if the current owner still has it I must try to get good photos of it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (21/12/24 04:12 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #388351 - 21/12/24 07:31 PM

Are you sure a .458" groove to groove was bored to .410"?
I suppose it might work, but the wads would be undersize.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: DarylS]
      #388353 - 21/12/24 10:34 PM

My understanding was that these rifles were smooth bored for the same reason as all the rook rifles, following changes in UK law after WW1

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lancaster
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388363 - 22/12/24 06:29 AM

years ago I had an ex 500 BPE in my hands, than a smooth bore for 32 or 28 ga. it was than a double gun simply to retain it on a british shotgun licence after coming home from the colonys.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: lancaster]
      #388364 - 22/12/24 08:30 AM

The shotgun fits me fairly well. I'll have to see both how it patterns with shot and performs on a sporting clays course.

Here are the proofs on the 3 guns:

Left to Right: 360EX Watson, 500EX Army & Navy, 20 bore Army & Navy ex500EX

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85lc
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388389 - 23/12/24 07:06 AM

My rifled choke tube is by Carlson. There are probably differeent manufacturers.

I never tried shot in the gun with the rifle choke tube but would thing it would act similar to a paradox - I have used my Cogs paradox for quail.

--------------------
RB

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85lc
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: 85lc]
      #388390 - 23/12/24 07:15 AM

Daryl & John,

I have shot 410 shotshels in a 45/70 rifle but the head of a 450NE may be too large for a 410 shotshell.

The base diameter of a 410 is .470" and the rim is .535". The 450NE base is .545" so if reboring to a shotgun, perhaps a 28 ga would work and a more common 20 ga would be better

--------------------
RB

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TH44
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: 85lc]
      #388395 - 23/12/24 11:00 AM

Ref CJF - You are indeed correct ref the UK law on shotguns, at one time shotguns did not have to be listed, one licence covered all (This is 1960's)

In my ignorance, at the time I smoothbored a SMLE in.303 to.317 ish, it would hit a man target at 100 yards keyholing!! (go to jail nowadays)

Then they had to be listed, proofed for a standard cartridge which is why so many rook rifles were so converted

I cannot recollect double rifles at the time, but recently bought a Purdey in .360 with .410 chambers GRRRR!

TH

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: TH44]
      #388396 - 23/12/24 01:15 PM

At least it was a pretty looking Purdey Tony. But I feel your umbrage at the destruction of these fine old things for a zero improvement in the public's safety.

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lancaster
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388398 - 23/12/24 10:08 PM

maybe the old 400 Purdey 3" would be an option for the smooth bore 360 Exp.
http://old.municion.org/Purdey/400Purdey.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: lancaster]
      #388402 - 24/12/24 04:23 AM

Surprisingly, there's a bunch of new, old stock Bertram 400 Purdey/400 Nitro for sale on Gunbroker if anyone needs it.

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CJF
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388562 - 31/12/24 12:34 PM

I tried the Army Navy CSL converted rifle today. 3/4oz slugs (328gr?) by Federal. Surprisingly accurate for two fairly quick shots at 30yds, with the left and right barrels not crossing, hitting with correct elevation but biased to the right. I'd like to explore more loads for this, and options for adding back iron sights.

Has anyone here tried loading their own 20ga slugs in the brass hulls available from Magtech?

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DarylS
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Re: Double rifles converted to shotguns [Re: CJF]
      #388581 - 01/01/25 06:08 AM

Sorry no. I haven't loaded 20 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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