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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
Mannlicher description help
      #387874 - 27/11/24 06:42 AM

I picked this rifle up for some work I did and need to find out what I have, these are not in my area of expertise by any means but always wanted one. I also need a stock as it came with out one, it was picked up at an estate sale so no telling what happened to it. I was told that it is a 9.5 x 57






Edited by Rolland (27/11/24 06:48 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387875 - 27/11/24 06:49 AM

Hopefully the bore's still good Rolland!
A bit of TLC & she's be up & running.
Rothhammer will be the man you need for your side of the pond to ask any questions

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Igorrock
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387876 - 27/11/24 06:52 AM

Trigger guard looks similar which so-called Greek Mannlicher has.

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DonZ
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Igorrock]
      #387879 - 27/11/24 08:27 AM

So many proof marks on the barrel! Very interesting.

The "St.m.G. indicates it was proofed in Germany with a "Stahlmantel Geschoss", or steel jacketed bullet.
I can't quite make out the insignia over the "NP", but the NP is an Austrian Nitro Proof mark. Similarly, the "Pentagon" over the N next to St.m.G is a German nitro proof mark... but I think that's a military symbol, I'm not sure.

Below that, we have the "arm" over NP, which is a London nitro proof mark, and I believe the "V" and "GP" are also London marks. I'm expecting those marks to be enclosed in a circle, with the words "Not English Make", but I'm not sure when they began including that text, which would give an idea when that barrel was proofed. 'm not sure how those numbers represent a date. Perhaps the 94th weapon proofed in 1925?

It has also been proofed for 45 grains of cordite.

The receiver also has an Austrian nitro proof mark.

M1910 on the barrel tells me 9.5X57, but I'd have the chamber cast just to be sure. How long is the barrel?

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: DonZ]
      #387882 - 27/11/24 09:50 AM

Quote:

So many proof marks on the barrel! Very interesting.

The "St.m.G. indicates it was proofed in Germany with a "Stahlmantel Geschoss", or steel jacketed bullet.
I can't quite make out the insignia over the "NP", but the NP is an Austrian Nitro Proof mark. Similarly, the "Pentagon" over the N next to St.m.G is a German nitro proof mark... but I think that's a military symbol, I'm not sure.

Below that, we have the "arm" over NP, which is a London nitro proof mark, and I believe the "V" and "GP" are also London marks. I'm expecting those marks to be enclosed in a circle, with the words "Not English Make", but I'm not sure when they began including that text, which would give an idea when that barrel was proofed. 'm not sure how those numbers represent a date. Perhaps the 94th weapon proofed in 1925?

It has also been proofed for 45 grains of cordite.

The receiver also has an Austrian nitro proof mark.

M1910 on the barrel tells me 9.5X57, but I'd have the chamber cast just to be sure. How long is the barrel?



The barrel in 20 inches, the barrel band is 10 inches from the muzzle so I wondered if this might have had a full lenght stock. I will do a chamber case and see what the chamber looks like.

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Marrakai
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387885 - 27/11/24 10:31 AM

The standard chambering for the M1910 is often referred to as 9.5x56 MS, or in British parlance, the .375 Rimless Nitro Express.
Interesting discussion on whether or not the rim was included in the Austrian measurement.
If the bore is good, this would be a very worthwhile restoration.
They are marvelous hunting rifles for the larger medium game such as boar and bigger stags. Absolutely love mine!
You might remember a hunting anecdote I posted some years back.

Thought it might be a take-down, by the "hook" under the rear tang, and that banded loop under the barrel (assuming its not a sling-swivel attachment?) ,,,but no lever in front of the trigger guard.

Congratulations on your great buy!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Marrakai]
      #387887 - 27/11/24 01:11 PM

Marrakai
I liked that story kinda reminded me of W D M Bell on one of his more famous elephant hunts. I hope to find a stock that I can use a pattern and have one made.

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casper50
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387889 - 27/11/24 05:22 PM

Watch ebay for a stock. There's a guy on there that buys them and parts them out. There were a few stocks on there in the past month. He's not cheap.

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DonZ
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: casper50]
      #387890 - 27/11/24 07:54 PM

20 inch barrel, I'm thinking carbine/full stock. I think mine has the same barrel band, will have to measure. Either way, the sling swivel screw goes through the barrel band. You'd have to ask Brian for details on the take down.

The Austrians, did not include the rim, so 9.5X56. The Germans do include the rim, so 9.5X57. Two ways of describing the same round.

CIP definitely calls it the 9.5X57. I'm trying to figure out how to post the attachment, I have the CIP pdf kicking around someplace. Here's a link: https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/tabical-en-page72.pdf


Neither is to be confused with the 9.5X57R. I actually have 20 pieces of brass for that, but have no idea what I'm going to do with them. Maybe some day I will win the lottery, and have a double made for the rimmed cartridge.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

Edited by DonZ (27/11/24 07:59 PM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387904 - 28/11/24 01:31 PM

Quote:

I picked this rifle up for some work I did and need to find out what I have, these are not in my area of expertise by any means but always wanted one. I also need a stock as it came with out one, it was picked up at an estate sale so no telling what happened to it. I was told that it is a 9.5 x 57




I was going to reply to this last night but cannot seem to log in to NE on my other computer. Each time I try it simply 'loops' to 'login'. Works fine with this machine, however.

Other members have provided some good advice. You have come to the right place.

Some points already made:

- M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauers were originally chambered for 9.5X57. If your receiver is unaltered that will be the chambering. Don Z's advice to have the chamber cast is spot on, however, as this may have already been someone's 'project'. You do have Austrian (original), British, and German proofs. Many M1910s were Take Down Models (more on that later) which were popular among the British trade so many were British proofed after the Austrian proofs. The Cordite load for 9.5X57 should be 43 grains which is consistent with '375 EX' which is abbreviation for .375 Nitro Express Rimless' as the Brits called the 9.5X57 cartridge. That line should read, 'Cordite 43 - 270 MAX' which indicates a maximum load of 43 grains Cordite with 270 grain projectile.

Your mark of C 9.5 is further verification that it was originally chambered for the 9.5X57 cartridge, Npv is the 'nitro proof' mark for Vienna, '9425.20' indicates the 9,425th arm to be nitro proofed at Vienna in 1920.

- Marrakai is spot - on accurate, here. Take Down Models have the slotted tang which should not be present on any other rifle or stutzen (full stocked carbine) but, as noticed by self last night and posted by Marrakai, there should be a sizeable semi circular slot at rear of magazine well to engage a 'moon shaped' pawl on the take down lever, though, which does not show in photos. Is it present? The forend band with tab looks proper for a TD model as well, through which a forend pin would pass. The take down lever itself mounts to the trigger guard on a TD.

My images are stored on another computer which, for some reason, is not allowing me to sign in to NE. When (if?) I sort that out I'll provide images.

Meanwhile, you may find this link to be rather informative;

Mannlicher Schoenauer AH

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #387905 - 28/11/24 03:14 PM

We're back; got log in issue sorted.

Here are pages 50, 51, 52 of the 1939 Stoeger Catalog:







Detail of Take Down Model trigger guard and lever, pin parts:
Note part 14/1 which is for slotted tang of TD model to index. On other models receiver is held at rear with screw (part 71). Parts 49/2 and 49/3 are trigger guard catch and lever (TD Model only) which assemble to trigger guard with parts 49/4, 5, and 6. Parts 85, 86 comprise forend pin for TD model. Other models used forend screw (part 53) which also retained sling ring.



Images swiped from 'net:


Take Down trigger guard assembly.


This is part 14/1 from list above, but with 'special folding peep sight'.


Typical, original, Austrian proof marks on pre WW2 (and pre Anschluss) MS without clutter of additional marks. '411.08' indicates 411th arm to be 'nitro proofed' at Vienna in 1908, NPv is Vienna Nitro Proof, 4143 is MS serial number, C6.5 indicates cartridge (6,5X54, an M1903), and script EV (visible at underside of barrel and of receiver) is Austrian 'first proof'.


Typical Brit proofs on M1910 sold through British trade pre WW2.


From 1939 Stoeger.


British Proofs.


Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model, cased.



In summary, It was proofed when new (Austria) 1920, sold through British retailer (proofed again), later reproofed in Germany.

If nothing is terribly wrong with it she's a very worthwhile project.

If it's a TD would be extra nice to restore that function, as well, though I don't ever recall seeing one with 20" barrel.

If it's a stutzen the tang appears to have been modified. Then again, Steyr was known to be accomodating to custom orders. A Take Down stutzen would seem redundant, though.

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #387934 - 29/11/24 08:16 AM

Apparently this was not a take down, from what I read it should have a release lever in front of the magazine this one does not. The bore is a bit worn but I see no pits or other blemishes. It has riflings altho just dark, I would have no problem shooting it. Still need to make a chamber cast.
I am looking for a replacement stock or one that could be used as a pattern if anyone knows of one, I am not too good at starting from a blank.

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DonZ
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387938 - 29/11/24 10:20 AM

I'll break down my Stutzen later this weekend and take some photos for you...

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: DonZ]
      #387944 - 29/11/24 02:08 PM

Got the chamber cast made, it measured out to be a 9.5 X 56 altho I don't have a cartridge to compare it to. does match within drawing tolerances. The cast does show a fairly long leade so I assume the bullets were set out a ways.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387945 - 29/11/24 03:13 PM

Build cartridges exactly like this, they should feed perfectly:









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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #387971 - 30/11/24 10:23 AM

Quote:

Got the chamber cast made, it measured out to be a 9.5 X 56 altho I don't have a cartridge to compare it to. does match within drawing tolerances. The cast does show a fairly long leade so I assume the bullets were set out a ways.



Properly built cartridges for the M1910 can be purchased from Reed's Custom of Oklahoma Reed's

He uses fresh 7X57 Norma, draws to a straight tube before properly placing 9.5X57 shoulder.

Here is a bad scan of a Reed's handload, one of my old reloads (.35 Whelen, run through RCBS two die set, cut to length, stuffed with Hornady 3715), original DWM531, fired Whelen case from my reloads.



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DarylS
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #387977 - 01/12/24 05:14 AM

Quote:

Build cartridges exactly like this, they should feed perfectly:





Notice the shoulder measurement?
It's .001" LARGER than the 7x57 Ack.IMP or .280 Ack.IMP.
The shoulders of both of my "factory" 9.3x62's also come fireformed at .454/5", whereas all diagrams I've seen of the case were .451".
It most definitely is not a .35 Whelen necked up, nor is the 9.5x56 a 7x57 necked up. It is a blown out case, long time before Ackley was in operation with his wildcats.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: DarylS]
      #387990 - 01/12/24 08:23 PM

Quote:



It most definitely is not a .35 Whelen necked up, nor is the 9.5x56 a 7x57 necked up. It is a blown out case, long time before Ackley was in operation with his wildcats.



Well, it's no surprise that the 9.5X57 is not a ".35 Whelen necked up" as the 9.5X57 was designed in 1908 while the Whelen is said to have originated 1922.

The 7X57 goes back to 1892 and, as you noted (and we have discussed before), has an entirely different shoulder than the 9.5X57. That is why it is desirable to draw _X57 brass straight (or at least expand neck) prior to sizing in a 9.5X57 die. Shoulders of other 57mm cartridges tend to be not only narrower, but lower than the 9.5X57. The 9.5X57 die won't even touch the shoulder of many _X57 cases.

Shoulders of .35 Whelen (or of .30-'06) are higher and are pushed down by the 9.5X57 die, though they truly are slightly narrower.

The cartridge headspaces on that rather slight shoulder.

Many people do, however, 'fire form' _X57 in the MS and report satisfaction with the result.

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #388084 - 07/12/24 02:30 PM

I am still looking for a stock, I would take a cracked or broken stock if I could repair it so it could be used as pattern. I am not sure I could make one from a blank .

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #388086 - 07/12/24 05:23 PM

Quote:

I am still looking for a stock, I would take a cracked or broken stock if I could repair it so it could be used as pattern. I am not sure I could make one from a blank .



Not original, but these 'sporter style' inletted for Y1903 ('Greek Mannlicher') may be adaptable to your purpose?: Richards

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DarylS
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #388096 - 08/12/24 05:35 AM

Nosler's book listed 7x57 as having a 1.728" base to shoulder measurement, ie: body length.
If the drawing of the 9.5mm Man.is correct, it is .097" longer making headspace OUT almost 1/10". CIP law is .007" and SAAMI suggested headspace (usually American Standard) is .006, or visa-vis.
.097" headspace is excessively DANGEROUS.
That some people get away with just necking up 7x57 or 8x57 to hold a .375 dia. bullet and firing it, just proves the existence of guardian angels in my MOST humble opinion.
What will happen if those cases don't separate on firing, is that they are stretched in the web and will separate at some time in the future.
Even .019" headspace which is excessive headspace by .011" or so will leave a bright ring around the case at the web.
If using 57mm brass from the smaller ctgs. the ctg. must be necked straight before necking down in a 9.5x56/7 die.
This can be done easily with a .44 Mag or .45 Colt RCBS expander die. The nose of the expander needs to be ground on an angle that will enter the mouth of the 'parent' case.
I found it easier to make a new expander "plug" with more taper and do the expansion to 9.5 in one pass on new brass. Older, fired brass should be partially annealed first, yet when doing this on some old .30/06 brass for my .375/06IMP, I lost only 4 or 5 cases out of 50 old, oft fired .30/06 cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: DarylS]
      #388098 - 08/12/24 06:53 AM

here is a german who made new stocks for the M 1908 and the GK https://schaftwerk.de/#schaefte

the MS 1908 having the same action size like the 1903 , 1905 and 1910, only the diameter of the barrel may vary.
because its only a stock shipment should be absolute no problem.

imho, fireforming anealed 30 06 brass is the way to go.

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: lancaster]
      #388112 - 09/12/24 04:32 AM

lancaster
here is a german who made new stocks for the M 1908 and the GK https://schaftwerk.de/#schaefte

Thanks for the address, I sent him an email on what I want.

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Rolland
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #388141 - 11/12/24 03:56 AM

I am still kinda wandering around in the dark on this rifle as far as a stock. Is the action the same as the Greek?, would the 1910 MS fit in the Greek stock as far as the action size. Reason I ask is I can find a couple of places that make stocks for the Greek actions and if they would fit I might be able to go that direction.

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DarylS
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Re: Mannlicher description help [Re: Rolland]
      #388142 - 11/12/24 05:01 AM

This statement:

"I found it easier to make a new expander "plug" with more taper and do the expansion to 9.5 in one pass on new brass."

Should have been:

"I found it easier to make a new expander "plug" with more taper and do the expansion to straight in one pass on new brass."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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